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Open Letter To Alpa Pilots

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FoxHunter

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 4, 2002
Posts
679
An Open Letter to Fellow ALPA Pilots, January 7, 2007


It is hard to believe that May of this year will be the 22nd anniversary of the United Airline (UAL) Pilot strike of May of 1985. It seems like it was just yesterday.

I remember graduating from college and reporting to Air Force Pilot Training in November of 1972. After 6 years on active duty and 1 year in the Reserves I was able to finally get my “dream” job as a pilot with Untied Airlines. I was hired in June of 1979, as a B-737 “Flight Engineer/Door Guard”, but I didn’t care, I had a great career in aviation ahead of me. In May of 1980 I was excited to upgrade to the B-727 as a real Flight Engineer, but just 6 months later, in November of 1980, I was furloughed. After 4 years on furlough I was finally recalled in November of 1984 and once again excited to continue my career.

Then in early 1985, the Untied CEO, Dick Ferris, announced to union that he wanted to start a permanent B-scale for all the new hires at UAL. The B-scale salary would be half of the A-scale salary. The deal was we would be able to maintain our current A-scale salaries if we agreed to put all the new hires on a permanent B-scale. This meant there would be a group pilots doing the exact same job we were doing, but they would only make half of what we were making for their entire career at United Airlines. This could be up to 30 to 40 years for some pilots.

Then in April of 1985 I received a very interesting phone call from my Flight Manager who stated, “Steve, ALPA will soon be going on strike over the proposed B-scale and other issues, do not listen to the union and go on strike, I want you to stay on the property. We are going to rebid the airline and we will immediately upgrade you to a B-737 Captain position if you are loyal to the company and continue to work. If you listen to ALPA and go on strike you will loose your job and be permanently replaced and never work for this company again.” The company was going to try to break the union.

Well, what a great opportunity for me and my family. At that time we had people who had been on the property as a B-727 Flight Engineer for over 30 years before they could even upgrade to a B-737 Co-Pilot and here I was being offered a Captain position after only 6 years with the company. But the problem was I would be enhancing my career at the expense of the career of my fellow pilots. I would be moving up to a Captain seat that was vacated because I allowed and supported the termination of fellow pilots. That and imposing a B scale on the new hires just did not seem like the right thing to do.

So, I along with 95% of the pilots on the property went on strike in May of 1985, and we all risked loosing our jobs and risked not being able to support our families, because it was just the right thing to do. This group of ALPA pilots experienced solidarity, loyalty and honor in fighting for a just cause. Lifelong friendships were made standing together on the picket line. This group of pilots could not be intimidated by management and these pilots now proudly wear a “Battle Star” above their upright ALPA wings.

There was another famous group of 570 pilots that the company had previously trained as strike breakers, who much to the company’s dismay refused to go to work. They did not go to work because they realized to steal a fellow pilots job while he was on strike, was just not the right thing to do.

There was another group of pilots, only 5 %, who stayed on the property and attempted to move up at the expense of their fellow union pilots being terminated. The company found another group of pilots, called “fleet-quals”, who were willing to cross the picket line and sign a contract to work for $50,000 a year as a Co Pilot and $75,000 a year as a Captain. The company later admitted it would never have hired this substandard group of pilots through the normal interview process. This group of pilots attempted to come in the back door and take the jobs of pilots on strike that would be terminated. ALPA pilots labeled the people in both of these groups as SCABS.

On January 30, Federal Aviation Agency (FAA) Administrator, Ms. Marion Blakey, in a speech to the National Press Club, announced the FAA plans to abolish the arbitrary and discriminatory Age 60 Rule. Senator James Inhofe responded by saying, “FAA Administrator Marion Blakey’s proposal to end the Age 60 Rule is a step in the right direction. However, the harsh reality of the situation is that American pilots are already suffering under the current standards. I have spoken with Administrator Blakey and she has agreed to consider addressing the impact to pilots stuck in the middle - those who will be forced to retire at age 60 before the new rule is enacted.” United Airlines alone will terminate between 250 to 300 pilots a year for the next several years. The FAA needs to immediately start granting exemptions for pilots to fly past age 60.

I am one those pilots “stuck in the middle”. I will reach age 60 on June 5, 2007 and be forced to retire from flying for United Airlines (UAL) due to the archaic FAA Age 60 Rule. With over 35 years of experience and over 18,000 hours of flight time as a pilot in the Untied States Air Force, during the Vietnam Era and as a pilot with United Airlines, with no accidents or violations, I would like to continue my professional carrier in aviation as a B-747-400 Captain. I love to fly. I submit that my skills and experience enhance aviation safety, serve United Airlines and the serve public interest.

ALPA is opposed to a change in the Age 60 Rule and is actively lobbing against legislation that would allow fellow ALPA pilots to continue their careers and not be terminated. Isn’t it ironic that the pilots being terminated are very the pilots who supported the union, risked everything and went on strike in 1985 and did not allow a permanent B-scale for the new hires? I related this to a friend outside the Air Line Industry and he incredulously asked, “How can that be? Doesn’t your union have a Duty of Fair Representation (DFR) to all its union members regardless of age? How can ALPA have a policy that obviously supports and practices age discrimination in the work place?”

I explained that ALPA took a survey on the Age 60 Rule and 55 % of the pilots did not want to change the rule. Consequently, ALPA’s official policy is against a change in the Age 60 Rule, because the majority rules. However, the majority of pilots are younger, so now this group of younger pilots will move up more quickly at the expense of their fellow union pilots who will be terminated. Many of these younger pilots would now be on a B-scale, earning half of what they now earn, if it were not for the striking pilots, whose jobs they now actively supporting to be terminated.

My friend responded, “But this sounds a lot like the group of pilots that tried to take your job during the strike in May of 1985. What was the term you used to describe that group of pilots? This is a lack of consideration and respect for the striking pilots of May of 1985, who risked their jobs for the all the union pilots.”

It is regrettable to see my once united, proud and honorable union, ALPA, is now promoting and supporting an age discriminatory retirement policy. I propose that ALPA align its policy with the current ICAO standard and new FAA policy and actively promote and support changing the mandatory retirement age from age 60 to age 65. Let’s “FIX IT ALL NOW.”

But more importantly, I challenge ALPA to petition the FAA to immediately start granting exemptions for pilots to fly past age 60, because it is just the right thing to do.

Fraternally,



Captain Steven B. McBride
United Airlines
B-747-400 SFOFO
Loyal Member of ALPA and Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination (APAAD)




_______________________________________________
 
Okay, I bite on the flame bait here Foxhunter. Obviously we all know where Fox stands on the Age 65 issue.

I still have to offer this observation. If this letter is showing resolve and solidarity to support ALPA, and suggesting it to be applied on the Age 60 issue, wouldn't the right thing be for ALL ALPA members to support the majority of their fellow members on the issue, despite their personal preference or opinions? And if that is the case, wouldn't the right thing to do, in the interest of supporting our Union, then to be to oppose the Age 60 rule changing, since the majority is against it? It appears, like the United Pilots did in the 80s, that even though guys like Fox would like the Age 60 rule to change and benefit them and their personal interests, he is going to now take the higher road now and support Age 60 as it stands today. Foxhunter, I am glad you came to that conclusion and thank you for supporting the majority of the Union!
 
open letter

Before I would send an "open" letter to any large group, I think I would do a grammar and spell check of the same. The greatest of ideas (not that this one qualifies!) communicated poorly does not convince or persuade. Go back to the drawing board and enjoy your retirement...Blakey already said no waivers would be entertained.

JMO

Aviator7576
 
Captain McBride enjoys being the captain of a 747-400. There's a shocker. Many of us are not enjoying year 6 of our furlough with a good 5-10 left to go.

That letter contained some of the most twisted logic I have ever seen in my life. Steve would have really been waving the flag to change age 60 around 1984 or so wouldn't he?

Hypocrite.

PIPE
 
Ya'll might want to don a helmet. The wall hurts.
 
ALPA opposes age 60 because of safety of flight, and 55% of those polled agreed it is a safety of flight issue.

Lets get one thing strait, the pilots of United struck because a majority agreed that they should. What would have happened it UAL ALPA disregarded the MAJORITY then? Today a majority agree that age 60 should stay. If ALPA disregards the majority now what does that say about solidarity?
 
It is hard to believe that May of this year will be the 22nd anniversary of the United Airline (UAL) Pilot strike of May of 1985. It seems like it was just yesterday.

I remember graduating from college and reporting to Air Force Pilot Training in November of 1972. 1) After 6 years on active duty and 1 year in the Reserves I was able to finally get my “dream” job as a pilot with Untied Airlines. I was hired in June of 1979, as a B-737 “Flight Engineer/Door Guard”, but I didn’t care, I had a great career in aviation ahead of me. In May of 1980 I was excited to upgrade to the B-727 as a real Flight Engineer, but just 6 months later, in November of 1980, I was furloughed. 2)After 4 years on furlough I was finally recalled in November of 1984 and once again excited to continue my career.

Then in early 1985, the Untied CEO, Dick Ferris, announced to union that he wanted to start a permanent B-scale for all the new hires at UAL. The B-scale salary would be half of the A-scale salary. The deal was we would be able to maintain our current A-scale salaries if we agreed to put all the new hires on a permanent B-scale. This meant there would be a group pilots doing the exact same job we were doing, but they would only make half of what we were making for their entire career at United Airlines. This could be up to 30 to 40 years for some pilots.

Then in April of 1985 I received a very interesting phone call from my Flight Manager who stated, “Steve, ALPA will soon be going on strike over the proposed B-scale and other issues, do not listen to the union and go on strike, I want you to stay on the property. We are going to rebid the airline and we will immediately upgrade you to a B-737 Captain position if you are loyal to the company and continue to work. If you listen to ALPA and go on strike you will loose your job and be permanently replaced and never work for this company again.” The company was going to try to break the union.

Well, what a great opportunity for me and my family. 3)At that time we had people who had been on the property as a B-727 Flight Engineer for over 30 years before they could even upgrade to a B-737 Co-Pilot and here I was being offered a Captain position after only 6 years with the company. But the problem was I would be enhancing my career at the expense of the career of my fellow pilots. I would be moving up to a Captain seat that was vacated because I allowed and supported the termination of fellow pilots. That and imposing a B scale on the new hires just did not seem like the right thing to do.

So, I along with 95% of the pilots on the property went on strike in May of 1985, and we all risked loosing our jobs and risked not being able to support our families, because it was just the right thing to do. This group of ALPA pilots experienced solidarity, loyalty and honor in fighting for a just cause. Lifelong friendships were made standing together on the picket line. This group of pilots could not be intimidated by management and these pilots now proudly wear a “Battle Star” above their upright ALPA wings.

There was another famous group of 570 pilots that the company had previously trained as strike breakers, who much to the company’s dismay refused to go to work. They did not go to work because they realized to steal a fellow pilots job while he was on strike, was just not the right thing to do.

There was another group of pilots, only 5 %, who stayed on the property and attempted to move up at the expense of their fellow union pilots being terminated. The company found another group of pilots, called “fleet-quals”, who were willing to cross the picket line and sign a contract to work for $50,000 a year as a Co Pilot and $75,000 a year as a Captain. The company later admitted it would never have hired this substandard group of pilots through the normal interview process. This group of pilots attempted to come in the back door and take the jobs of pilots on strike that would be terminated. ALPA pilots labeled the people in both of these groups as SCABS.

On January 30, Federal Aviation Agency (FAA) Administrator, Ms. Marion Blakey, in a speech to the National Press Club, announced the FAA plans to abolish the arbitrary and discriminatory Age 60 Rule. Senator James Inhofe responded by saying, “FAA Administrator Marion Blakey’s proposal to end the Age 60 Rule is a step in the right direction. However, the harsh reality of the situation is that American pilots are already suffering under the current standards. I have spoken with Administrator Blakey and she has agreed to consider addressing the impact to pilots stuck in the middle - those who will be forced to retire at age 60 before the new rule is enacted.” United Airlines alone will terminate between 250 to 300 pilots a year for the next several years. The FAA needs to immediately start granting exemptions for pilots to fly past age 60.

4)I am one those pilots “stuck in the middle”. I will reach age 60 on June 5, 2007 and be forced to retire from flying for United Airlines (UAL) due to the archaic FAA Age 60 Rule. With over 35 years of experience and over 18,000 hours of flight time as a pilot in the Untied States Air Force, during the Vietnam Era and as a pilot with United Airlines, with no accidents or violations, I would like to continue my professional carrier in aviation as a B-747-400 Captain. I love to fly. I submit that my skills and experience enhance aviation safety, serve United Airlines and the serve public interest.

ALPA is opposed to a change in the Age 60 Rule and is actively lobbing against legislation that would allow fellow ALPA pilots to continue their careers and not be terminated. Isn’t it ironic that the pilots being terminated are very the pilots who supported the union, risked everything and went on strike in 1985 and did not allow a permanent B-scale for the new hires? I related this to a friend outside the Air Line Industry and he incredulously asked, 5)How can that be? Doesn’t your union have a Duty of Fair Representation (DFR) to all its union members regardless of age? How can ALPA have a policy that obviously supports and practices age discrimination in the work place?”

I explained that ALPA took a survey on the Age 60 Rule and 55 % of the pilots did not want to change the rule. Consequently, ALPA’s official policy is against a change in the Age 60 Rule, because the majority rules. 6) However, the majority of pilots are younger, so now this group of younger pilots will move up more quickly at the expense of their fellow union pilots who will be terminated. Many of these younger pilots would now be on a B-scale, earning half of what they now earn, if it were not for the striking pilots, whose jobs they now actively supporting to be terminated.

My friend responded,7) “But this sounds a lot like the group of pilots that tried to take your job during the strike in May of 1985. What was the term you used to describe that group of pilots? This is a lack of consideration and respect for the striking pilots of May of 1985, who risked their jobs for the all the union pilots.”

It is regrettable to see my once united, proud and honorable union, ALPA, is now promoting and supporting an age discriminatory retirement policy. I propose that ALPA align its policy with the current ICAO standard and new FAA policy and actively promote and support changing the mandatory retirement age from age 60 to age 65. Let’s “FIX IT ALL NOW.”

But more importantly, I challenge ALPA to petition the FAA to immediately start granting exemptions for pilots to fly past age 60, because it is just the right thing to do.

Fraternally,



Captain Steven B. McBride
United Airlines
B-747-400 SFOFO
Loyal Member of ALPA and Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination (APAAD)




_______________________________________________


1) Wow, seven years to get a job at a major. That's about 5-10 years quicker than you can do it now. Poor guy.

2) Four years on furlough. Sounds about average. Poor guy.

3) Someone can check my math, but if there were guys in 1985 who had been 727 FE's for 30 years, UA got some pretty early deliveries.

4) Hey Steve, you've been "stuck in the middle" for 30 years. Why is it suddenly a crisis?

5) Yeah, I just bet his non-pilot friend was discussing Duty of Fair Representation over beers. Maybe if he hangs out with labor lawyers.

6) Nice. So my support of the same rule that Steve-O supported for 30 years makes me a scab. I'll be sure to make a note of that.

PIPE
 
Capt McBride's logic is ridiculous!! He wants to to stay in his job at the expense of others when he got there faster because of the age 60 rule in the first place. You supported the Union's position to strike back in the 80s because the majority ruled that way. The majority now supports keeping the age 60 rule but you don't support it now because of your personal circumstance and greed (what's best for you). Ridiculous argument.
Go away FH.
 
Fox Hunter....yes or no...did you realize that pilot retirement age was 60 when you signed on? ...and BTW...it`s lose, not loose...do yourself a favor and learn the difference...
 
Fox Hunter....yes or no...did you realize that pilot retirement age was 60 when you signed on? ...and BTW...it`s lose, not loose...do yourself a favor and learn the difference...

When I signed on my union, ALPA, said that it would be changed. When I signed on 80% of the pilots I flew with smoked. When I signed on we had one pilot on the list that was considered wierd because he ran. When I signed on hotels When I signed on no pilot over age 32 was hired by a major. When I signed on women need not apply. When I signed on African Americans need not apply.
 
See, the wall is hard. The wall hurts. The wall will continue to make absurd analogies. We don't need no education....
 
Steve and/or Fox Hunter:

First of all for you to imply with your thinly veiled literary license of "a friend outside of the airline industry" whom asks, "but this sounds a lot like the group of pilots that tried to take your job during the strike in May of 1985" to describe the 55% of ALPA that opposes age 65 is irreprehensible.

You should retract that post now before you embarass yourself, friends, colleagues and family any more. Furthermore, I believe the use of the word scab among those whom belong to organized labor groups should be carefully studied and measured before it is done. It is an inflammatory and emotionally charged word that ranks right up there with the N word or the C word. To arbitrarily use that word to describe the 55% who have voted not to persue age 65 is reckless. Particularly from one that has a "battle star."

When you were preparing for the UAL strike, did you not take a strike vote? I will venture to guess that it was taken and overwhelmingly in support of a walk out. Well, ALPA has voted again and this time the majority does not agree with your agenda. This does give you the right to voice your opinion on the issue, but not to throw out provocative remarks and conjecture like you are.

You must know that life sometimes is not fair. People get furloughed, lose jobs, and so on. Sometimes even worse misfortunes occur. Why not look at this the other way and be thankful you have been able to fly your entire career and not lose your medical, or any of a number of other things that can cause anyone of us to not complete are careers.

Think of that the next time you are half way across the Pacific. While you are at it, perhaps why not ponder that fate of many in the industry have not been as fortunate.

If you do that and you still feel as strongly as you do.....I suggest then that you get in touch with Warbirdfinder. He might care. I would venture more that 55% here do not.

Ed
 
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That clock's tickin'

When I signed on my union, ALPA, said that it would be changed. When I signed on 80% of the pilots I flew with smoked. When I signed on we had one pilot on the list that was considered wierd because he ran. When I signed on hotels When I signed on no pilot over age 32 was hired by a major. When I signed on women need not apply. When I signed on African Americans need not apply.

8 months+ and counting....

See ya, wouldn't want to be ya....:)
 
Your letter could be used as evidence in support of the Age 60 rule. Anyone who produces such an incoherent and unfocused letter probably shouldn't be navigating 400 people across a large expanse of ocean...

but that's just me...
 
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nothing better to add so..............

Fox Hunter....yes or no...did you realize that pilot retirement age was 60 when you signed on? ...and BTW...it`s lose, not loose...do yourself a favor and learn the difference...

typos on a forum...are common, and those who point them out to try to degrade the person posting is a sign of a REAL lack of intellect. To get to the point. Its funny who is screwing us on this age 60 rule.ALPA! They have been fighting it, why? who the heck knows.....But something behind the scenes is having alpa fight the wrong fight. What they should be doing is making a study group to make the approval of this change faster. I understand that by changing the rule it would make any future professional plans and time frame I would like be a lot slower. But lets be serious, Foxhunter has a point, it is the right thing to do. I hope alpa is out there reading this.
 
open letter to Foxhunter;

Go to Netjets with the rest of the unprepared. You've gone as financially far as you can in the Airlines and you STILL f'd it up. too bad. happy retirement.
 
Thirty years as an FE?:eek: I think I would have called it quits long before then.

Oh well, it's not for me, but if someone is crazy enough to want to stay in this business til they are 65, more power to them. The least of my concerns is trying to tell other people how to run their lives.
 
I don't even know what to say, I'm just shaking my head.


Maybe he's just terrified that, once he's retired he actually has to hang out with his wife, and this is just his last ditch effort.
 
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I don't even know what to say, I'm just shaking my head.


Maybe he's just terrified that, once he's retired he actually has to hang out with his wife, and this is just his last ditch effort.


Which wife #1, #2, or #3? Also, how many kids under the age of 5?
 
Fox,

The right thing to do? I seem to remember that ALPA was the one union on the property that didn't do a thing when retirees pensions were getting flushed. Did you write any letters about that? Was that the right thing to do? It's awfully convienient for you to wake up now and start standing up for everyone's rights.
 
Appearantly my jovial post was not well recieved. I recieved a PM to the fact I opened a personal attack against the individual. Indeed I felt obliged to use this individual as an example. Since humor was not appreciated, here's my official stance.

I do not care if the age is changed or not. When the dust settles, bruised egos are healed, and the people realize that the world did not stop spinning, the retirement age change, or lack thereof, will have little to no long term impact on me. Personally, if I am in a position to retire prior to 60, I will probably do so, but in no instance will I fly past 60. I love flying, and I love airplanes. While that will not change, I'd like to be able to write my own schedule and be home on my charge flying an airplane. Certainly piloting an airliner has it's great merits and is great fun, but at the end of the day there are certain aspects that make it a job.

Back on track. Based on the letter, the individual seems to feel entitled to working more. I even commend the gentleman for loving his job so much that he doesn't want to quit. Basing this reply on the broad guess that his ONLY retirement source dried up when the "A" plans started disappearing, should age 65 change today, and, as a broad assumption that many are in the same boat, the folks that are 58+ today will have a very hard time shoring up individual retirement accounts in 7 or less years to the point they are independent. This is all thinly veiled in three basic "arguments" for extending the retirement age:
1) He had a career of mediocrity due to furloughs and making the right call not scabbing. I do know the following. Had I been furloughed by my company once, I would have been very wary of it happening again. Maybe I'm paranoid, but has airline management ever been trusted in recent memory (sans SWA, of course...but that's another thread)? If I had been furloughed, I would have done everything possible to shore up my financial status. You know, the "shame me once" rule. On the not scabbing issue, he pats himself on the back for doing the right thing, and now wants a gimme. As far as I know, ethics is doing the right thing, because it's the right thing to do.

2) He feels entitled to his seat because of his background. You can read it. I flew this, that, here and there. I guarantee there are pilots that are better, more qualified and have had crappier careers (ask some 20+yr LCC guy on bottom reserve). However, this has nothing quantitative as to why age 60 should be extended.

3) He threatens ALPA members. First, he tries to establish a position of authority by referencing his "Battle Star". Then follows up with an implication that people who don't support age 60 are scabs. Implying that someone would be a scab for their position seems like a threat to me.

All the author had to do is, oh, anything to show that he would be as safe at 60+ as he is at 60-, and fails to do so in an act of desperation. If this was such a pet cause, we would have heard about it before disappearing pensions. It's too late. Those that haven't planned are going to suffer. More breaking news, if the age does get extended to 65, there will be 22 year-olds hired this year the money for retirement at 65.

I still feel sorry for the guy, but his argument is rediculous.

Whew, I'm outta words....
 
typos on a forum...are common, and those who point them out to try to degrade the person posting is a sign of a REAL lack of intellect. To get to the point. Its funny who is screwing us on this age 60 rule.ALPA! They have been fighting it, why? who the heck knows.....But something behind the scenes is having alpa fight the wrong fight. What they should be doing is making a study group to make the approval of this change faster. I understand that by changing the rule it would make any future professional plans and time frame I would like be a lot slower. But lets be serious, Foxhunter has a point, it is the right thing to do. I hope alpa is out there reading this.


You know, I have to disagree. A message board is a conversation. In a spoken conversation if you sound like an idiot - people think you're an idiot. Same deal here.

PIPE
 
Werd up, pipe;
 
Fox,

The right thing to do? I seem to remember that ALPA was the one union on the property that didn't do a thing when retirees pensions were getting flushed. Did you write any letters about that? Was that the right thing to do? It's awfully convienient for you to wake up now and start standing up for everyone's rights.

My pension has never been flushed. Not because I'm brilliant, just pure dumb luck. I could retire tomorrow, but I enjoy the job. I figure ALPA is a dead man walking, but I watched Walt Disney when I was a kid.:crying:
 
open letter to Foxhunter;

Go to Netjets with the rest of the unprepared. You've gone as financially far as you can in the Airlines and you STILL f'd it up. too bad. happy retirement.

Sonny, Why would I do that? I could retire tomorrow, but I like the job. I know that I could do the job better than you today, and ten years from now.:beer: :D
 
Typical baby-boomer whining.

We're going to spend the next 40 years cleaning up the mess you guys left us. I've noticed none (not one!) of the pro-age 65 guys offered the solution to just move over a seat at 60--so it's a win-win for everyone.

Nope.

I can hear Bill Clinton's voice: "Sure, there's a sacrifice. And you have to make it. Because it's fair. It's fair. It's fair to me."

Foxhunter, your generation left us with an upside-down social security, free drugs for everyone over 65, free medical care for everyone over 65--and didn't worry about paying for it.

Selfish and self-centered. I think of the hippies that "tuned out" instead of working like the next generation.

Your letter strikes of entitlement. "I deserve this". Never once do you address what anyone else deserves. Typical baby-boomer navel-gazing. "Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!"

Don't let the door hit ya where the lord split ya.
 
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