Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Oh " call the tower"

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

Vavso

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 3, 2001
Posts
202
Got a "call the tower message today"

Leaving myself open to potential abuse I have a tale woe hoping for some advice .
got a "call the tower at my earliest convenience ( a different tower than where I landed ) I was told nicely that I was inside his class D by a mile . My GPS and sectional told me I was outside . when asked if I was getting violated he said no .He pretty much said I owe him .

what happened was:
I was monitoring the class d tower freq and heard them point out my traffic to another guy but there was no danger /conflict .I would have requested clearance thru ( a short cut ) but did not want to burden him he was busy
Bottom line:
I cannot help worry he may indeed violate me NASA report prepared . I feel really stupid but all my instinct told me I was outside of his airspace . His radar tells the real story.
I will be extra cautious in the future .. OK let me have it !
 
Last edited:
A question before I give you a response.... Did the controller acknowledge you, or did you have radio contact with the tower controller before you allegedly entered the Class D airspace?
 
more info

Negative never called just monitored I have been rejected clearance through there before and had what i thought was a wide birth around the D even though it added 15 minutes on my ride .
 
Send the NASA form in.

You're saying that your GPS AND your sectional (via ground fixes) had you outside the class D right?

Send in the NASA form anyway. This tower we are talking about do you know if they are looking out the window at you and guessing your distance or do they have a "BRITE" up there in the tower?
 
affirmative

gps and sectional showed me good . this tower is high traffic and does have radar I am not disputing the facts My handheld versus a radar . They win hands down . I will say my database update on the gps did not go well so maybe it was off .I reinstalled the database just in case vavso
 
They have radar? Wow, that's pretty good for a Class D tower facility. Most just have a Brite.

Anyway if you were good on your sectional you should be good. Send in the NASA form. Dont wait, fill it out and send it in.
 
First off... you don't really need a "clearance" per se to enter Class D airspace. All the controller has to do is acknowledge your presence on the freq. You really should have called the tower anyway. That way, even is he tells you to "stand-by" you still have established radio contact and therefore could enter the Class D.

Also, I think that your use of judgement in this area was quite sound. According to the infomation you had (and I will assume the sectional is current and your VFR navigation skills are sound) you gave what you believed to be adequate separation from his airspace. So, he says that you were in his airspace. Is it possible that he could be right? I guess you would know that answer more than I would. In any case, go ahead and fill out a NASA report anyway. What harm can it do?

Hope this helps...
SK :cool:
 
That's a whole lot more info about how you were CYA than your original post on ilsapproach.com.

If you goofed, fess up and also put in a NASA form.
 
OH yea.

If you messed up, explain very clearly how you messed up. Put it all down on the NASA form.

I still carry NASA forms in my briefcase....at least I think there are some in there.
 
Hey... these things happen more then you think. The only time you will get reported is if there is some sort of an operational error or deviation, then the paperwork has to be filed. On both sides of the mic we're human... I'm not justifing it but we all make mistakes.

On a minor incident like yours filing paperwork (on the ATC side) would be a nightmare...

Fly Safe, and no harm in filing the NASA form if you want.
 
Hey ATCer, nice avatar. Just curious: Is Pushing Tin as funny and agravating to y'all as the Airport movies are to us pilots?
 
Human Error

ATCER said:
Hey... these things happen more then you think. The only time you will get reported is if there is some sort of an operational error or deviation, then the paperwork has to be filed. On both sides of the mic we're human... I'm not justifing it but we all make mistakes.

On a minor incident like yours filing paperwork (on the ATC side) would be a nightmare...

Fly Safe, and no harm in filing the NASA form if you want.



I agree. Once- soon after my Private, I was leaving the Denver area-- I thought I was clear of the 9000 Ft Class B tier, but ATC contacted me, and IIRC asked me my intentions - then advised me of my error. The guy sounded peeved but didn't ask for a phone call and let me go about my way - It might have been different if I was going into B airspace.

Unless the controller has a real chip, I don't think what you did would be worth his time to raise hell about.
 
Im a controller and this type of thing happens on a weekly basis. Alot of the class D's have radar and we can see you people flying through it. using your sectional and your gps should prevent you from entering the airspace. I don't know why you were a mile inside if these two things told you otherwise. Apparently like you said you didn't want to burden the controller with an overflight if he was busy but let me tell you something, if you ever want the short cut, take the overflight. Its a traffic count and the more we get the better we get paid. He would have gladly let you in. But if you monitored tower freq....and yet had not called in and did enter the airspace yes, it was a violation. Most of the time we don't even write them up. It's a pain in the butt like ATCER said earlier. The phone call is not recorded and its just a way for us to tell you that you screwd up and not to do it again. The paper work sucks, but I will fill it out if its necessary. my advice to you is either call in and get radio id'd or fly a few miles outside the line.
 
LJDRVR said:
Hey ATCer, nice avatar. Just curious: Is Pushing Tin as funny and agravating to y'all as the Airport movies are to us pilots?

:D LOL

Not the greatest movie for technical info but they did a good job of capturing the personalities... a bunch of us went to see it when it came out one evening after the night shift... it was fun because we don't work in the NY Tracon... but are all too familiar with them :rolleyes:

I have met the person that John Cusak was based on a number of times... he is still at the NY Tracon. Nice guy... interesting... I can't say anymore on a public board. Before they made the movie John Cusak and Billy Bob Thorton hung out at the tracon for a few days... all the Tracon "pukes" though they were special... LOL:o

They also did a good job on capturing the look of the Tracon... except they keep it way to dark in there still...
 
TRACON pukes...I thought the only sector for pukes in atc were the "CENTER PUKES." J/k atcer....anyways, im a tower puke! I actually get to see something other then a radar scope. What ARTCC you work for?
 
Had something similar happen (twice) in Florida. The first one was I found out the hard way St. Augustine was now Class D rather than E. Rule of thumb, make sure you do not have old sectionals in the plane. Had the current one but pulled out the old one. Filed a NASA report. Received a reply back. Other than that, never heard another word.
Another time flying into Exec (Class D) was asked to call MCO when I landed. They wanted to make sure I knew I was real close to their airspace (within 1 mile). Had a GPS that was current plus a current TAC. The friendly MCO person didn't know what equipment I had and was more concerned I was a "rookie" unknowingly getting too close.

This (the topic) is good stuff. Now where's that crowbar so I can pull some money out of my wallet and donate to flightinfo?
 
Last edited:
a related question for the atc folks here.. someone mentioned if the controller in class D tower said simply "standby" that's establishing communication.. i was taught, and i always taught my students, that hearing 'standby' was Not establishing communication, that in fact they needed to respond to you, i.e., say your call sign. i instructed at a pretty busy class D airport, and it got tricky for the students, because sometimes when calling inbound, tower would respond 'cessna xxx, standby.' well, they acknowledged our presence, but told us to stand by.. could we enter the airspace? (common sense nothwithstanding.. obviously we're not going to bust into the traffic pattern without instructions) if they simply said, 'standby' with no call sign, it was assumed to remain clear.
 
Dude,

Just climb up to 2501AGL and fly right over. Even in my Champ I can climb that high<G>
 
NASA form?

I'm a new pilot and see reference to a NASA form in this thread? What NASA form? When do you have to file with NASA?
 
empenage said:
They have radar? Wow, that's pretty good for a Class D tower facility. Most just have a Brite.

Anyway if you were good on your sectional you should be good. Send in the NASA form. Dont wait, fill it out and send it in.

Was it a TRSA?
 
AVIATION SAFETY REPORTING FORMFAQs For UseATTENTION!Pilots, Air Carriers, Owners and Other Holders of FAA Licenses -Do You Depend on Your License or Certificate For Your Livelihood?•If you have made a mistake and inadvertently violated the FARs, the FAA maytake enforcement action in the form of suspension, revocation, or civil penalties.This Aviation Safety Report (ASR) Form can be submitted in confidence, toNASA to obtain “Sanction Immunity.”•If the FAA proves you committed the violation, it may go on your record, but the“sanction” such as revocation, will be avoided if you properly file this form.•Recommendation:1. Download Tracking Log to maintain a record of submittal of ASR Form(compliments of The Phillip J. Kolczynski Law Corporation).2. Download the ASR Form3. Download Adobe Acrobat Reader (free reader from Adobe, Mac orWindows) to print out both the Tracking Log and ASR Form and keep yourairplane or briefcase in the event that you make a mistake.•If you think you may have inadvertently committed an airspace, separation,communication or any other unintentional violation - FILE the ASR Form!WARNING! An FAA License or Certificate Holder must prove that the ASR Form wasdelivered or postmarked, within ten (10) days of the incident in order toqualify for sanction immunity.FAA Advisory Circular No. 00-46c, explains that you cannot claim “Sanction Immunity“by means of an Aviation Safety Report in any of the following circumstances:•Deliberate actions which violate the Federal Aviation Regulations•Criminal Activity - Remember - Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time!•Aviation Accidents (an “accident,” distinguished from an “incident” is defined in49 C.F.R. 830.2 as involving death, serious injury or substantial aircraft damage)•FAA confirmed violations within the last five (5) years•Actions revealing a lack of competency or qualifications to hold a licenseWARNING! If you think any of these exceptions may apply to you, retain an AviationLawyer to obtain attorney-client privileged advice before you file the form.If you are involved in criminal activity - Do NOT file the form, contact aCriminal Law Specialist. The form might be used against you if there is anaccident or criminal activity. FAR 91.25.Page 1 of 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 2
AVIATION SAFETY REPORT TRACKING LOGCompliments of: The Phillip J. Kolczynski Law CorporationE-mail: [email protected]RL: http://www.aviationlawcorp.comDIRECTIONS FOR USE:1.Download the ASR Form from NASA, then print it from your computer. Youwill need Adobe Acrobat Reader which can be obtained FREE from Adobe at“http://www.adobe.com/Acrobat/readstep.html”2.Do not worry if this form comes out on two or three pages. Use plain paper toamplify the description, if necessary. Simply fasten together the official NASAportions and fill them out by hand. (The Government Form is not designed to becompleted on a computer).3.Make sure you fill in the Identification Strip so that NASA can return it to you,confirming receipt of your report. Don’t rely on the Identification Strip alone asproof of filing. What if NASA doesn’t receive it, and ten (10) days pass --You’llhave no way of proving you satisfied the ten (10) day requirement!4.Recommendation: SUBMIT THE ASR Form to NASA by Certified Mail.Why take a chance on First Class Mail or other delivery methods (ManyCommercial Delivery Services do not certify overnight delivery to P.O. Boxes).Remember, the burden is on the License Holder to prove that the form waspostmarked or delivered to NASA, at the appropriate address listed below, withinten (10) days of the incident.5.Keep a copy of this Tracking Log in your airplane, briefcase, glove compartment,etc.6.Place the correctly addressed NASA ASR Form in a mailing envelope and preparethe envelope in accordance with U.S. Post Office instructions for delivery via“Certified Mail - Return Receipt Requested.” Mail it within ten (10) days of theincident to:NASA Aviation Safety Reporting ProgramP.O. Box 189Moffett Field, California 94035-9800LOGDATE and approximate time OF INCIDENT______/_____/19____Approximate LOCATION of incident______/_____/19____DATE OF CERTIFIED MAILING with Return Receipt______/_____/19____Double check NASA ADDRESS on mailing envelopeCHECK BELOW:YES, I DID _____DATE of return of Certified Mail RETURN RECEIPT ______/_____/19____DATE stamped on IDENTIFICATION STRIP from NASA ______/_____/19____Page 2 of 2
 
So basically filing the NASA form can't be used against you, but it can be used to help you? I'd hate to file a NASA form if I think I may have violated a rule, turns out I didn't but the FAA questions me because of a NASA form submission.

Thanks for the clarification :)
 
FSB99 said:
a related question for the atc folks here.. someone mentioned if the controller in class D tower said simply "standby" that's establishing communication.. i was taught, and i always taught my students, that hearing 'standby' was Not establishing communication, that in fact they needed to respond to you, i.e., say your call sign. i instructed at a pretty busy class D airport, and it got tricky for the students, because sometimes when calling inbound, tower would respond 'cessna xxx, standby.' well, they acknowledged our presence, but told us to stand by.. could we enter the airspace? (common sense nothwithstanding.. obviously we're not going to bust into the traffic pattern without instructions) if they simply said, 'standby' with no call sign, it was assumed to remain clear.

As long as the controller uses your callsign they have established contact and you may enter Class D airspace. (i.e., "Navajo 800SA, stand-by" is considered establishing contact and you may enter Class D.)
 
Last edited:
Radar Calibration

The next time you have any airspace penetration without two way coms or clearance, just ask the controller the last time they had their radar calibrated! It will make them all fuzzy inside and they will send you on your way with a smile...
 
skyking1976 said:
As long as the controller uses your callsign they have established contact and you may enter Class D airspace. (i.e., "Navajo 800SA, stand-by" is considered establishing contact and you may enter Class D.)

thanks!
 
goaliemn said:
So basically filing the NASA form can't be used against you, but it can be used to help you? I'd hate to file a NASA form if I think I may have violated a rule, turns out I didn't but the FAA questions me because of a NASA form submission.

Thanks for the clarification :)

correct, when you submit a report, it remains totally anonymous, and they send you back a little slip verifying that they have received it
 
I had an experience that made me go Hmmm.

I was coming into NY airspace from the west, talking to NY approach. No problem.

We were going to land at Caldwell to pick up a passenger, and NY held onto us a litle longer than the Caldwell tower liked. When the captain called, the controller said that "they do that to me all the time!!!" and said it would go no further. I made a mental note to get on the other radio and establish contact when in that situation again.

Of course, nowdays it isn't a problem. I just go up the Jersey TP and through the Lincoln Tunnel. In my car.
 
Radar Calibration
The next time you have any airspace penetration without two way coms or clearance, just ask the controller the last time they had their radar calibrated! It will make them all fuzzy inside and they will send you on your way with a smile...


yeah right, all that is is challanging the atc and all they are going to do is write you up for pissing them off. Radar is not perfect but its good enough to tell me someone is in my airspace or not. If you screw up and enter, thats fine, as long as you didn't disrupt my traffic situation or kill anyone then ill send you on your marry way.... if you challange my equipment and make it look like its ATC's fault, then your ass is busted. The radars undergo regular checks just like anything else in the NAS. Thats when we come back and say maybe you should have your dme bench checked or maybe your gps is a piece of **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**. You pin it on us and we will make sure the paper work is in.

as for the two way communication comment.....yes, if i don't use your callsign and just say "aircraft calling, standby" you can't come in, if i say "Kingair 433GA, standby" then yes, come on in.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom