Of airplanes running off the runway....

[100LL... Again!]

The quality of pilots is diminishing due to a lowering of standards.

Fast movement in the field, along with people more motivated to advance than actually develop the skills needed are leading causes.

By and large, we are becoming an industry of swith-flippers posing as professional airmen.

A large percentage of the pilots I know are far more concerned about their union contract and getting what they "deserve" than they are about their professional capabilities. Perhaps we are getting what we deserve? I think just maybe.

 

[LJDRVR]

Which part of my post was ignorant and uninformed.

The whole thing.

I could give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you are really interested in the answer here, and not just some half-baked idiot stirring the pot, but my theory is that you're simply rationalizing your own descision not work at the regionals by carrying around some "holier than thou" chip on your shoulder over the pay issue.

My basic response to would be actually engage your brain and think a little. Your theory assumes that the majority of pilots with any desirable traits take one look at the first year pay and walk away on some lofty principle. ("I'm worth more than that, so I'll give up something I love to make a political statement while I work in some office.") Get real! Do you really believe this is occuring regularly? So, if the "quality" pilots would never stoop to work at low pay, then where are they working? Do you have ANY idea what's occuring in the industry right now and how few jobs there are?

I'm not going to bother to address how safety/accidents work, because I think you don't really care, and have already made up and closed you mind. I will say this though, Uncertainty over their jobs and future does tend to cause an increase in pilot deviations at a specific carrier. For instance, during the Piedmont/USAir merger, they went through the roof and then returned to normal. I would imagine you'd see some similiar things occuring now at one or two of the legacy carriers. Pilot deviations however, do not equal more accidents. If you really want to address how training and organizational cultures may contribute, (not cause, super genius) accident or incidents, I'd be happy to delve into that. (There is some really interesting stuff out there you probably havn't heard in CRM class...)

My guess though, is you're simply dumping on others to make yourself feel good about your descision not to come play with us. Truthfully, we're much better off without you, so my sincerest gratitude and thanks!

Blue Skies!

 

[xjcaptain]

100LL. I think you hit the nail right on the head with the switch flipper comment. If some of the guys that complain about the company/union constantly put half the effort into their flying skills that they put into complaining, everybody would be a lot better off.

 

[Britpilot]

The quality of pilots is diminishing due to a lowering of standards.

Fast movement in the field, along with people more motivated to advance than actually develop the skills needed are leading causes.

By and large, we are becoming an industry of swith-flippers posing as professional airmen.

A large percentage of the pilots I know are far more concerned about their union contract and getting what they "deserve" than they are about their professional capabilities. Perhaps we are getting what we deserve? I think just maybe.

If it is so easy to be an airline pilot and the standards are so low, then I invite you to apply for a pilot position. I will be happy to give you a sim evaluation and would be even happier to put your skills against any pilot in my company. Care to try, poser?

 

[100LL... Again!]

I am currently on furlough from my second 121 carrier. I was an instructor at my first airline.

I would pass your evaluation, as I have passed all the others. Funny thing about simulator instructors, we usually know most of the tricks, sadists that we are.

Anyway, I am right on this issue. I spent enough time in the sim to know.

It is relatively easy to be an airline pilot. The number of marginally skilled people I saw pass training was staggering. I did not work at a bottom feeder airline either.

Another thing: I wish pilots would stop comparing themselves to doctors. most of the pilots I know have nowhere near enough dedication to make it through med school. Most of us are spoiled, lazy, and have an inflated sense of our own worth in the field of aviation.

Go home, junior.

And for Pete's sake, please try to keep that big shiny plane on the runway. Okay??!!
Our poor profession can't take any more.

 

[WhiteCloud]

You mock pilots wanting a low-paying regional job because you have "other skills and other options". Yay for you. I don't disagree with you that regional pay sucks, but your assumption that low pay is the cause of accidents is ABSURD. Please continue instructing and working your "day job", and remember, a good pilot never quits learning...

I don't really disagree with you, but, I do think we lose a significant level of safety when pilots show up for work stressed and tired from working several jobs and dealing with financial hardship. Lower paid pilots don't have a monopoly on stress though. Those higher up on the food chain can still show up for work tired and stressed after 3 days of "fun" at Disney World with the family or a "conference" in Cancun. It's more about personal outlook than the situation itself.

 

[Palerider957]

Cynic has a point.....we all know that well paid, pampered, mainline pilots have N-E-V-E-R made a mistake or had an incident. So that's it, high pay= top skill.


It's all so clear to me now.

 

[minrest]

100LL... "It is relatively easy to be an airline pilot. The number of marginally skilled people I saw pass training was staggering. I did not work at a bottom feeder airline either."

I guess we can't really call you a liar since you apparently have proved your own theory to be true.


100LL...."The quality of pilots is diminishing due to a lowering of standards.

Fast movement in the field, along with people more motivated to advance than actually develop the skills needed are leading causes."

How have the standards lowered? And as for "fast movement in the field," you're kidding, right? Please show me this "fast movement." How can someone on furlough even claim this?

-minrest

 

[AWACoff]

For anyone out there under the impression that regional airline salaries have INCREASED throughout the years...please put the Kool-Aid down. At my current company and my past company, our pay did not keep up with inflation. At my current company, the FO's in the 146 made MORE than CRJ captains do now just a short 5 years ago. I make $26/hour less than what 146 FOs made back in the '90s (The captain I just flew with used to make $65/hour in the right seat of the 146). Even before the TA it was $20/hour. We at AWAC are making the same amount of money as the pilots who flew here in the '80s made. When United got their "industry leading" contract a few years ago...all it did was bring them back in line with what they should have been at (based on cost of living increases). Our purchasing power is steadily DECLINING (based on real dollars).

 

[belchfire]

I betcha that more 152s and 172s run off
runways per 100K flight hours than even
those POS erjs that were built by people
that had to come down out of the frigging
trees and learn to wear shoes to work
before they drove their first rivet!

How many CRJ's, ARJ's and Junkstreams
have run off the runway lately?

Ya going to blame low pay on the crash
of the Gulfstream a few years ago in
Colorado? Betcha that Captain was making
what the whole crew of a erj makes...including
the gallywench!
How bout the 73 that ended up at the gas
station in burbank?

supergenius my a$$

Geeze!

 

[100LL... Again!]

The fast movement occurred several years ago, as we all know, and the problems will take some years to fully show themselves

I really don't care if you can see the truth or not. Someone asked, I told them. If you don't want to open your eyes, don't.

As to my personal skill level, I would like to know how you are aware of this.

I guess it was just a weak attempt at a put down. Please try harder next time. I didn't comment on YOUR skills, but anyone with that much insecurity must have something to hide??

On a happier note, I am pleased that you find flying so difficult and challenging.

I guess every flight for you is a leap through the jaws of death, pregnant with opportunity for danger.

Snug up your silk scarf, the Red Baron awaits.

 

[belchfire]

"Snug up your silk scarf, the Red Baron awaits."

100 LL...

Yours is the superior putdown!!!
LMFAO

 

[minrest]

100LL .... I didn't comment on YOUR skills, but anyone with that much insecurity must have something to hide??

You commented on every pilot's skill when you stated, "The quality of pilots is diminishing due to a lowering of standards."

How have the standards been lowered and if they have been lowered what makes your standards so much higher. Does your pilot's licence have a Gold Star or Smiley Face stuck to it?

As for you comment, "I am pleased that you find flying so difficult and challenging.I guess every flight for you is a leap through the jaws of death, pregnant with opportunity for danger." Nothing could be further from the truth. The majority of flights are routine and mundane. This is to be expected as the crews that I fly with have been properly trained and held to exacting standards. They are professional pilots.

-minrest

 

[BoilerUP]

The fast movement occurred several years ago, as we all know, and the problems will take some years to fully show themselves

Yeah, because we all know pilots who have been captains for 2+ years don't know anything about flying or their airplane's operation

I may be new to this industry, but a comment like this deserves a WTF OVER?

So may I assume all those low-time military guys who became captains at Jetblue or Airtran after 18 months with less than 4000TT will have the same problems? Or will the fact they fly "real" airplanes negate that fact?

The logic in this thread is mind-boggling, it really is. Accidents are going to happen after thousands of hours of command experience, but not right after the "quick movement". Ummm hmmmmm.....

 

[100LL... Again!]

Point #1

Flying is relatively easy, after you do it for a while.

Point #2

The SYSTEM is fairly safe, given the way it is currently set up.

Therefore:

It is often only when unusual circumstances present themselevs that incidents occur. One way to measure someone's fitness for their job (especially flying) is to note how proactive they are in preparing for the unexpected and unusual. A very large number of pilots do not look any further than the company trainng program and ATP PTS to determine their skill level. There is one exception, in that often consult their own ego, which reassures them that they're really kickin a$$ at this here flyin' thing.

Anyway, Case in point: Look at the PFTers who proclaim that they are every bit as good as a pilot with much greater experience. What does EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM point to? Their training and checkride.

The training program is the beginning of your knowledge, not the end of it.

So some monkey can pass a checkride. Big deal. The ride measures only a handful of skills, and a few judgement scenarios, and the pilot is expecting KNOWN emergencies.

To address the above post:
Why don't these incidents happen all at once after fast advancement? Because these pilots CAN fly okay, so it may take some length of time before they are exposed to a situation that exceeds their skills and knowledge. This may take years. But be sure, their attitude will reveal them sooner or later.

Take the recent example of the crew landing at the air force base.

I know quite a few pilots I could see making that mistake. I also know quite a few that I am certain would never make that mistake. Then, there are many where you just never know. want to do everything I can to be in the group that never would. Therefore I spend a lot of extra time reading, studying and learning. I don't have as much time to "b*tch about the contract" as some others do.

My first and most important job is to ensure that I am truly worthy of the pay and responsibility that so many feel they are entitled simply because their company ID says 'pilot'.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Boilerup actually proves my point without realizing it.

I never said it had as much to do with flight time as it does with attitude. Flight experience is important, I know this, but you know the old saying about 1 hour repeated 5000 times.

Boilerup talks about military pilots.

Military pilots are not selected because they have passed a lot of checkrides or because they have hundreds of hours. They are selected because of the type of individuals they are. The military needs people who know how to take responsibility and exercise it correctly. They need people who aren't going to make 'getting what they deserve' their #1 priority. Not much room for excuse-making in the military, right? Perform, or be replaced.

Doing the job right comes first, at least among the military pilots I have known.

Now before you get all hot and bothered and accuse me of saying that military pilots are better, I am not.

I am saying that a little bit of this dedication would go a long way to fixing the fast-track mentality that has affected many in our profession.

In my opinion, a passed checkride means nothing more that you are just barely good enough to fly for the airline.

It is up to you to exceed that standard by as large a margin as you will.

Which reminds me of the old joke:

What do you call the guy who finishes last in med school?

Doctor.

 

[BoilerUP]

100LL, if what I said proves your "point", then you have changed what your "point" is throughout this thread. Here's how it started.

Lower TT hiring standards = lower-quality pilots = lower pay = higher accident rate

NONE of these things are mutually exclusive, and none of the first three directly lead to the last one. I would have hoped thinking individuals would have the good common sense to realize this. I think you are smart enough to realize that, and how are talking about "minimum standards".

You say military pilots are more concerned about "doing the job right first". Are you insinuating that a majority of regional pilots (or even a large minority) don't care about doing the job right? Thats certainly what it sounds like.

I agree people need to get out of this "out for #1" mentality, but I don't have any suggestions at the moment - do you? You say a passed checkride only meets minimum standards, and on that point we agree. I am a firm believer that ALL airlines need to have higher standards. There should be NO "train to proficiency" hand-holding that allows substandard pilots to remain employed. Witness the high initial failure rate of Eagle FlushbAAcks. I do disagree, however, that requiring more TT would solve this problem. Sounds too much like the "banning guns would end gun crime" argument.

And you bring up the NWA Ellsworth accident. Its very easy for you and I to say "I'd never do that, I'd be smarter than that", but unless you are in that situation, we really can't comment. Much like the CHQ crew that landed at Elkhart IN instead of SBN. Its easy to cast stones and think we are superior airmen because we've never made a bonehead mistake, yeah right...

And yes, the guy that finishes last in medical school is still called doctor. That joke goes both ways in this argument, and I used it about 25 posts ago.

 

[100LL... Again!]

-----------------------------------------------------------
There should be NO "train to proficiency" hand-holding that allows substandard pilots to remain employed. Witness the high initial failure rate of Eagle FlushbAAcks. I do disagree, however, that requiring more TT would solve this problem. Sounds too much like the "banning guns would end gun crime" argument.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I thought I implied the same thing.


Look at it this way.

Fast movement has a way of getting SOME SOME SOME people to look too far ahead.

When movement is slow, people realize that they will be in the time-building dues-paying phase for a quite a while. So, MANY of them will be more inclined to pay more attention to developing their skills in smaller aircraft.

However, when a regional job can be had at 500-700TT, what point is there to even get a CFII? Fly your tail off and move up.

So the quick 500 hours they get might not provide them with much real development. Hence the "1 hour repeated 500 times".

Some will be dedicated no matter what happens.

Some will fall for the temptation of quick advancement.

Some will advance quickly, but realize that they are advancing before they are truly as skilled as they COULD be.

Some will say, "Hey I'm an airline pilot, so I obviously know all I need to."

It is very annoying to hear an FO who can barely pass an FO PC whining about slow upgrades, right?

THAT is what I mean.

Out.

 

[BoilerUP]

Some will be dedicated no matter what happens.

Some will fall for the temptation of quick advancement.

Some will advance quickly, but realize that they are advancing before they are truly as skilled as they COULD be.

Some will say, "Hey I'm an airline pilot, so I obviously know all I need to."

It is very annoying to hear an FO who can barely pass an FO PC whining about slow upgrades, right?

THAT is what I mean.

I think we are finally on the same page now, and I CERTAINLY agree with this statement.

Tailwinds...