NWA Unprepared? Liquidation? Yeah Right...

[a320drivr]

Northwest unprepared for strike

Robert P. Mark
1/20/2006​

Despite Northwest Airlines hardball tactics in recent weeks such as trying to have pilot and flight attendant contracts tossed out via the bankruptcy court, company officials said in court this week that the airline is unprepared for any sort of job action by employees. In the past year, Northwest spent millions of dollars preparing for a possible strike by flight attendants and mechanics last fall. Officials also claim a strike would force liquidation of the carrier.

Northwest Airlines, which is asking employees for $1.4 billion in wage and benefit concessions, finished last year with nearly $300 million more in cash than its executives expected as late as October, thanks to increased revenue and cost cuts agreed to by pilots in 2004.

 

[Andy]

Good luck to all the red tails (and flying wedges also). In chap 11, there will be many times that you're faced with two choices: $hitty and a different kind of $hitty. No matter which choice you make, it'll be $hitty. But at least you guys will have the opportunity to be Monday morning quarterbacked (by many who sit on the sidelines) over your decision to not go with a different kind of $hitty.

All the best; I look forward to the day whenl both of your companies emerge from chap 11.

 

[P-Dawg_QX]

Northwest Airlines, which is asking employees for $1.4 billion in wage and benefit concessions, finished last year with nearly $300 million more in cash than its executives expected as late as October, thanks to increased revenue and cost cuts agreed to by pilots in 2004.

Oooo...sounds like mgmt will be getting EXTRA bonuses then!

:angryfire

:uzi:

 

[81Horse]

Oooo...sounds like mgmt will be getting EXTRA bonuses then!

Andy says that's okay by him at UAL, P-Dawg. Of course, at UAL they have new, improved, competent management flying them out of bankruptcy (according to Andy, elseforum); whereas, at NWA, there's just, um -- the same guys that flew the company into bankruptcy.

 

[320AV8R]

Wow.....so the "talented professionals" we have......can't figure the financial projections within ONE THIRD OF A BILLION DOLLARS ?!!!!!

Gimme a dart board.

The sad thing is these d!ckheads will shaft the employees, (again), and STILL walk away with millions.

320AV8R

 

[Andy]

Andy says that's okay by him at UAL, P-Dawg. Of course, at UAL they have new, improved, competent management flying them out of bankruptcy (according to Andy, elseforum); whereas, at NWA, there's just, um -- the same guys that flew the company into bankruptcy.

81horse, you're proving that you're not only a cynic, you're a misquoting a$$hole. I said that Tilton and Tague are worth every penny of their bonuses. I did not speak of the other 398 senior managers.
Your life must be REALLY miserable to be such a prick.
Again, what company do you work for? I'd like to know if, along with compensation envy, you suffer from airline envy. Well, it didn't take long for United to turn back into this forum's company of choice to hate.

 

[FlyUnited]

81 is probably some 8th grade student who got permission to play on the internet today.

 

[Andy]

81 is probably some 8th grade student who got permission to play on the internet today.

My guess is that he's been kicked around from one crappy flying job to another while trying to get hired by Southwest (hence the 737 sim time on his resume). Never caught the lucky break he's been looking for, so now he's pissed off at everyone and everything.
Gee, I don't know why such a bubbly personality wasn't hired by Southwest.

 

[SWA/FO]

We don't hire everybody with a type... Plus, you have to be out of the 8th grade.

 

[81Horse]

81horse, you're proving that you're not only a cynic, you're a misquoting a$$hole. I said that Tilton and Tague are worth every penny of their bonuses. I did not speak of the other 398 senior managers.
Your life must be REALLY miserable to be such a prick.
Again, what company do you work for? I'd like to know if, along with compensation envy, you suffer from airline envy. Well, it didn't take long for United to turn back into this forum's company of choice to hate.

Since you called me out, I'll respond to the above. I'm not misquoting you (if you insist, I'll go find your posts wherein you say that UAL's current management team is competent and deserve their incentives). The a$$hole and prick parts are debatable -- you are the one initiating the name-calling.

I am cynical, as I said; I do not hate United -- I'm merely injecting my contrarian viewpoint in the threads where you have repeatedly expressed your approval of fat management incentive packages. In fact, my family includes a retired UAL pilot; I care very much about his future, and that of my friends who work at your company.

I don't suffer from compensation envy or airline envy; my spouse and I work for two different carriers (not LCC's), one of which is in Chapter 11 (not mine). That's all the personal information I care to give on a forum like this.

Oh, and I'm a former PATCO air traffic controller, too. This may explain my cynicism for you (if you're old enough to know anything about the 1981 strike). The long campaign by big business and their government lapdogs to break the backs of unions in America is nearly complete now -- airline pilots being no more "special" than blue-collar workers.

So, no -- I'm not an 8th-grader sneaking on to Mommy's computer; you can do the math.

 

[Andy]

Since you called me out, I'll respond to the above. I'm not misquoting you (if you insist, I'll go find your posts wherein you say that UAL's current management team is competent and deserve their incentives).

OK, pull it up. Show me where I said that all of UAL's management deserves their incentives. I specifically said that Tilton and Tague deserve their incentives.

The a$$hole and prick parts are debatable -- you are the one initiating the name-calling.

I am cynical, as I said

Your actions on this thread indicate that you are more than just cynical; you are behaving like an a$$hole prick. I do not think that I am alone in this assessment of you.
I'd equate your description of yourself (cynic) akin to an alcoholic saying that he drinks on occasion, but 'could quit any time' or a morbidly obese person saying that he 'could stand to lose a few pounds.'
As for name calling, I'm just calling 'em as I see 'em. If you don't like it, you should ask yourself what you've done to elicit that response from me. I did not use those terms about you until you decided to drag this topic to a totally unrelated thread.

I'm merely injecting my contrarian viewpoint in the threads where you have repeatedly expressed your approval of fat management incentive packages.

Where in THIS thread did I say ANYTHING about NWA management and whether or not they deserve bonuses? Are you able to compartmentalize debates? Apparantly not.
For the life of me, I have no idea why you have chosen to carry a specific topic in regard to a specific carrier over to a thread where the OP is talking about an unrelated topic about a different carrier. You've succeeded in hijacking A320drivr's thread here. A320drivr, sorry for allowing this subject to bleed over onto this thread.

I don't suffer from compensation envy or airline envy; my spouse and I work for two different carriers (not LCC's), one of which is in Chapter 11 (not mine). That's all the personal information I care to give on a forum like this.

You make it sound like you work at a 121 major, but for all anyone knows, you could be flying at a 135 like Ameriflight. The largest aircraft on your resume is a 737. The rest are cats & dogs; E120, BAe31, LR35/36. You joined the forum in Nov 05, so I'd assume that it's fairly current.
If you worked for a large company, you'd have little problem giving out that information. In my case, I'm just another nameless one of the 2172 UAL furloughees. No, you don't give the actual information because your company is small enough that others in your company could easily figure out who you are.

Oh, and I'm a former PATCO air traffic controller, too. This may explain my cynicism for you (if you're old enough to know anything about the 1981 strike). The long campaign by big business and their government lapdogs to break the backs of unions in America is nearly complete now -- airline pilots being no more "special" than blue-collar workers.

Yes, I was enlisted in the military and old enough to legally consume alcohol prior to the PATCO strike. If you're blaming big business for breaking PATCO, methinks that your anger is sorely misplaced.

A320drivr, sorry for the thread hijacking.

 

[81Horse]

If you're blaming big business for breaking PATCO, methinks that your anger is sorely misplaced. ... A320drivr, sorry for the thread hijacking.

No, I'm blaming big business for breaking the back of organized labor in America -- including (and most to the point) airline unions.

Obviously, you didn't understand the points I made in my last post, and you're relying on speculation, name-calling, and "mine's bigger than yours" in your responses. How much longer till you bring up Hitler?

I also apologize for diverting the thread, and I'm stopping now.

 

[Boeingman]

The sad thing is these d!ckheads will shaft the employees, (again), and STILL walk away with millions.

320AV8R

Only if you continue to let them.

 

[320AV8R]

Only if you continue to let them.

It's not up to the employees, it's the cozy litte club they call the Creditor's Comittee. Our guys will be just like those at UAL. They'll lower labor costs, re-fi aircraft leases, etc... Then the banks will loan them $$$$ for the "reorganized" NWA. Of course, they'll have to reward themselves with $tock, for the great job they did; (UAL guys got a boatload of new stock). They wait for the stock price to rise, sell it, & presto..... more $$$$ in their pockets.

320AV8R

 

[Boeingman]

It's not up to the employees, it's the cozy litte club they call the Creditor's Comittee. Our guys will be just like those at UAL. They'll lower labor costs, re-fi aircraft leases, etc... Then the banks will loan them $$$$ for the "reorganized" NWA. Of course, they'll have to reward themselves with $tock, for the great job they did; (UAL guys got a boatload of new stock). They wait for the stock price to rise, sell it, & presto..... more $$$$ in their pockets.

320AV8R

I understand. My point was if NWA ALPA stands their ground to avoid a further attack on your CBA management can not "give" you the shaft. Unfortunately, ALPA has been nothing but a joke industry wide in succumbing to scare tactics and other management ploys designed to rape organized labor.

Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it.

 

[320AV8R]

I understand. My point was if NWA ALPA stands their ground to avoid a further attack on your CBA..........

What would you call “standing our ground” ? We are attempting to defend our CBA the best we can:

-----We stated that we would strike over NEWCO…..

-----Mgmt then “re-defined” it as aircraft under 76 seats…..

-----Then they said they were “unprepared” for a strike……

-----And then on Friday, John Luth, from the Seabury Group was testifying and….

…..towards the conclusion of Luth’s testimony, reference was made to management’s NEWCO proposal. Judge Gropper interrupted, stating “NEWCO may be an aspect of history.”


Hmmm, that sounds like some progress has been made.

management can not "give" you the shaft.

The way that Mgmt can (indirectly) give us the shaft, is through their malicious actions. They are lying through their teeth on the stand……and have to correct major points of their testimony during cross-examination. If a consensual agreement can’t be reached, we could “get the shaft” (via Mgmt) by the Judge imposing Mgmt’s last offer….. which is draconian, compared to what they need to make this place work.

320AV8R

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I don't know if the death of NewCo can be called progress. It is not a victory if we loose any of the scope agreement. The capacity numbers on certain routes could easily replace a DC-9 with a 76 RJ. All they have to do is move a 319 onto the higher capacity routes. I don't believe the DC-9 staying around to 2015 letter I got today. Fighting NewCo is a way easier task than 76 seaters at the regionals since, well, everyone else has them.

 

[320AV8R]

I don't know if the death of NewCo can be called progress. It is not a victory if we loose any of the scope agreement.

Maybe I am confused.

For over a year, Mgmt has been spouting off about their wonderful NEWCO plan. Their plan would outsource over 20% of the seniority list, to a horrible work situation. A 7 or 8 year DC9 F/O would be back to year one pay, with non-existent benefits, & a no strike clause. They would be removed from the NWA seniority list. The operation could be sold, with no pilot protections.

Mgmt has been unmoving in their resolve, as evidenced by their entrenched negotiating posture. McClain said their inflexibility could easily lead to a self help situation, and possible liquidation. The situation couldn’t get much more drastic than that.

Now, the threat of a large chunk of the seniority list being outsourced is minimized. They are no longer holding fast to their NEWCO mantra, of eliminating a large portion of our pilot group. Their excuses for the formation of such a sham company were hollow and exposed for what they were. The Judge even saw through it.

The discussions are now hinged around the 76 seaters.

Is it a perfect situation ? No.

Is it better than a week ago ? Yes.

Does it protect more jobs ? Yes.

Is it progress ? I think so.

WRT the wet leasing, etc…and other SCOPE....if we lose all that, there won’t be any incentive to work here anyway.

320AV8R

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Maybe I am confused.

For over a year, Mgmt has been spouting off about their wonderful NEWCO plan. Their plan would outsource over 20% of the seniority list, to a horrible work situation. A 7 or 8 year DC9 F/O would be back to year one pay, with non-existent benefits, & a no strike clause. They would be removed from the NWA seniority list. The operation could be sold, with no pilot protections.

Mgmt has been unmoving in their resolve, as evidenced by their entrenched negotiating posture. McClain said their inflexibility could easily lead to a self help situation, and possible liquidation. The situation couldn’t get much more drastic than that.

Now, the threat of a large chunk of the seniority list being outsourced is minimized. They are no longer holding fast to their NEWCO mantra, of eliminating a large portion of our pilot group. Their excuses for the formation of such a sham company were hollow and exposed for what they were. The Judge even saw through it.

The discussions are now hinged around the 76 seaters.

Is it a perfect situation ? No.

Is it better than a week ago ? Yes.

Does it protect more jobs ? Yes.

Is it progress ? I think so.

WRT the wet leasing, etc…and other SCOPE....if we lose all that, there won’t be any incentive to work here anyway.

320AV8R

NewCo was 76 seat jets to eplace the DC-9, whats the difference if a regional flys that or NewCo. Either way we willl lose a lot a pilots, maybe not as many, but a sizable number.

 

[32LT10]

Andy says that's okay by him at UAL, P-Dawg. Of course, at UAL they have new, improved, competent management flying them out of bankruptcy (according to Andy, elseforum); whereas, at NWA, there's just, um -- the same guys that flew the company into bankruptcy.

While you may not like the UA management team they have done what others said impossible. Tilton is the 3rd CEO since 2001 at UAL. He came in late and has done an impressive job of turning the place around. In the meantime NWA and DL waited and waited for UAL to keel over and did nothing to address the problems they were having. It is not that this all happened over night at NWA and DL. Your leaders had the warning signs and you failed to heed them. You bought what your company was telling you and now you blame UAL for not failing and Tilton for reorganizing. Perhaps NWA and DL should look to outside leadership to right the boat. Stop hating UAL for surviving and start worrying about the situation at NWA

 

[32LT10]

I don't know if the death of NewCo can be called progress. It is not a victory if we loose any of the scope agreement. The capacity numbers on certain routes could easily replace a DC-9 with a 76 RJ. All they have to do is move a 319 onto the higher capacity routes. I don't believe the DC-9 staying around to 2015 letter I got today. Fighting NewCo is a way easier task than 76 seaters at the regionals since, well, everyone else has them.

You are exactly right. The company makes all the noise about NEWCO and how it will be staffed by the furloughed mainline pilots. Meanwhile the ALPA team says we do not want NEWCO we want to maintain the 76 seaters at mainline. What happened at UAL and is the 76 seaters went to the express and the company furloughed the UAL pilots anyway. It is a no win situation.

 

[furloughed dude]

32lt,

I am not sure of the great job done by UAL management. They took three years to get out of chapter 11. They have also slashed your pay benefits and retirement. They took your pension and put that burden on the PBGC. You have a job with crappy pay and work rules and you are saying what a great job they have done. In the meantime they tried to rape you for huge management bonuses and they still took about half of what they wanted.. Great job!!

 

[320AV8R]

Either way we willl lose a lot a pilots, maybe not as many, but a sizable number.

I understand and agree with what you're saying. The choices are between ugly & real ugly.

I just see the possibility of decreased furloughs as positive, & indicative of some sort of progress.

320AV8R

 

[thruthemurk]

...Plus, you have to be out of the 8th grade.

Apparently not, judging from your posts.

 

[AAflyer]

While you may not like the UA management team they have done what others said impossible. Tilton is the 3rd CEO since 2001 at UAL. He came in late and has done an impressive job of turning the place around. In the meantime NWA and DL waited and waited for UAL to keel over and did nothing to address the problems they were having. It is not that this all happened over night at NWA and DL. Your leaders had the warning signs and you failed to heed them. You bought what your company was telling you and now you blame UAL for not failing and Tilton for reorganizing. Perhaps NWA and DL should look to outside leadership to right the boat. Stop hating UAL for surviving and start worrying about the situation at NWA

I am still not sure why there is respect and admiration for Tilton. He basically used the BK process like it was never used before, hiding in it for more than 3 years. He had the courts rape the employees of their wages, benefits and pensions. Now in the end he is rewarding himself and many others with millions of dollars in options, and nothing for the employees who sacrificed to turn UAL around. The pilots, the rampers, FAs, agents and mechs are the real heros who turned UAL around.

If you and other employees didn't show up to work the airline would not exist. If Tilton and other managers did not show up the airline would still run.

I am looking at this as an AMR employee. I do not work or have worked for UAL. If I am missing something about Tilton, or he is truly a quality individual who cares about UAL and it's employees over his million dollar bonuses please let me know. I am all ears.

Sincerely,

AA

 

[AAflyer]

I understand and agree with what you're saying. The choices are between ugly & real ugly.

I just see the possibility of decreased furloughs as positive, & indicative of some sort of progress.

320AV8R

I think the pilots of NWA have done an admirable job so far. These are some of the worst times airline pilots have seen. To negotiate is difficult to begin with, to do it in BK only makes it harder.

I am not going to spout about keeping the bar up. WE ALL HAVE FAILED in that respect, each company and pilot group for their own respective reasons. All I can say is do what is best your pilot group, In the end this is YOUR career and YOUR airline. Good Luck, and Godspeed.

AA