NWA to buy Mesaba. Whats mainlines thoughts.

[NuGuy]

Awww, you guys stop messing with YPF...he's just mad that "his" precious number might be in jepoardy by some XJ guys that might jump in front because of an integration.

Although, to be fair I'd be pretty torqued too if I'd been listening to the 3rd floor promises for years and years only to get told you're going to be behind a bunch MORE people.


Nu

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

NuGuy,

Are you saying ypf is a ati? That would make sense. I thought it was former capt rep TW because I am sure Occams Razor is another former capt rep MI. What do you think?

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas CD,

Nah, I've been watching his posts for a while, and there have been a few errors in his posts that no line pilot would ever make. He doesn't understand the contract all that well, even on some of the more basic issues. I don't get that "line pilot" vibe at all.

So my guess is either an ATI or some other 3rd floor/building A type wannabe, or maybe even some random person who surfs airliners.net a bit too much. All theory, no application...

As for speculation of who's who, well, part of what makes FI fun is the guessing, and I'd never "out" (IE naming names) a person intentionally, no matter what I suspect.

However, letting our fellow FI denziens know that someone may not be passing info on from real, actual experience is fair game, IMHO.

Nu

 

[jetflier]

[/b]

But at least it's shiney!!!!

And, it has 2 FAs, so you can listen to twice the bullsh!t !!!

Hey Taws,

Have you seen the mainline Flight Attendents ...?

I'd stay at Mesaba with the better FA,s......"what do you call three SEA based FA's in a hot tub ?






" gorillas in the mist ...! "

Happy Holidays

 

[xjhawk]

ati.......yes that does make sense, but i thought those guys as gals had seniority numbers? wait, I guess its only those who were grandfathered in when they had the flow through.....am i right?

I respect those instructors over there a lot, but nothing can replace flying the line to get experience. So if those at XJ get numbers, stapled on to the bottom would be better than not getting a number.....even if its behind some ground instructor, but personally, I would rather take my experience than that of flying a SIM.

 

[NuGuy]

ati.......yes that does make sense, but i thought those guys as gals had seniority numbers? wait, I guess its only those who were grandfathered in when they had the flow through.....am i right?

I respect those instructors over there a lot, but nothing can replace flying the line to get experience. So if those at XJ get numbers, stapled on to the bottom would be better than not getting a number.....even if its behind some ground instructor, but personally, I would rather take my experience than that of flying a SIM.

Heyas XJ,

More or less correct. ATIs don't get their number until they've gotten a type and put in 2-3 years of teaching. Until recently, they have not been training in the sim...most of what they do is ground school and procedures training. They do not get a number until they've jumped all the hoops, put in a couple of years (at least) AND there is actual hiring.

Most do an excellent job, and understand there is a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path. If you look at the situation now, many have been putting in years of work, probably being promised hiring will come "any day now". Now that an XJ integration actually has some support, they see that point slipping farther away.

My $0.02

Nu

 

[xjhawk]

so whats the deal on the last business day of the year? no deal? no announcment? I thought mr steenland told NWA passangers in the world traveler that 76 seat regional jets were coming in january.

 

[TAWS]

Are you guys saying that even though I got furloughed from XJ and have traded the SAAB for a shiney 170 at Reshuttlqua, that I may have a Northwest seniority # coming my way??
In addition are you saying that YPF would have to wait until all of the "spikey haired/iPod wearing/backpack toting/dude-speaking/my RJ is better than your RJ" youngsters are called, THEN he might get a number behind all of us??

Wow!! I'm going to dream of an even shinier RED jet tonight.

 

[TAWS]

Hawk,

I can't believe Douggie would lie to everyone!

How mean!!

 

[dbrownie]

Silly, you don't make $150K.

Nor will he get $2000 from nwa.

Dave B

 

[dbrownie]

Just want to know what is the thought from mainline about this. Whats the unions take on it. Just want to know where my future might take me being at mesaba.

Nwa is making money and needs places to hide it. Our criminal mgt
team has stuffed all the matresses full of cash and now needs new
places to hide it. We are also buying back many of the jets we sold.

Look for nwa mgt apologists to claim it is a savy move, as many of them think
mgt can do no wrong.

Dave B

 

[NuGuy]

Nor will he get $2000 from nwa.

Dave B

DB,

No, but he will probably get a check large enough to make the electric or gas bill for one month.

Not to mention about $50k from the claim sale, plus another $3-4k from the cash payout from the contract signing.

Rest assured, while Occam may be working harder for less $$ than he had in the past, he's still making more than anyone at any regional ever could hope for and certainly more than any management/staff person at NWA, with the exception of the top level of management and VPs.

While I disagree with many of the things that Occam says, I'm glad to see he's come around to thinking that a integration with XJ is a good idea. You guys have been screaming about this for years, and now that it might look like it has some traction, you sh!t all over the guy for mentioning it.

Whatever....

Nu

 

[dbrownie]

. You guys have been screaming about this for years, and now that it might look like it has some traction, you sh!t all over the guy for mentioning it.

Whatever....

Nu

Nu;

Sorry if you took it that way. I would much rather have integration between
groups than not.

Dave B

 

[Going2Baja]

Have you seen the mainline Flight Attendents ...?

"what do you call three SEA based FA's in a hot tub ?

" gorillas in the mist ...! "

I hate it when beer comes out my nose!!! BTW - I saw some of those Gorillas yesterday in SEA.....You are right on!!!

Baja.

 

[captain dad]

Everybody's Got One!

GET OUT AND STAY OUT OF PEE KNUCKLE, XJ, AND NWA. If IT HAS A RED TAIL IT AIN'T WORTH IT.

JUST MY OPINION!

UNLESS YOU LIKE GETTING SHOWER RAPED?

 

[IXLR8]

where are they?

Look for nwa mgt apologists to claim it is a savy move, as many of them think
mgt can do no wrong.

Dave B

DB,
you've actually heard people at NWA stick up for mngmt?.....

 

[NuGuy]

DB,
you've actually heard people at NWA stick up for mngmt?.....

Yes, it's true. I'll leave it to your imagination what equipment they fly...

Nu

 

[redflyer65]

Steenland talks about the DC-10 being gone in January, then in the same paragraph talks about getting larger regional jets. I don't think the two are exclusive. It just looks that way.

I couldn't help but laugh my *ss off when he talks one of two goals..

Increasing co-worker trust......

Whatever. Is he smoking crack? He guts everyone's earning and now wants everyone to join hands and sing Kumba Ya. Give me a break.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Ring the bell...school's in session!

From about 1998 up until September 11, 2001, NWA was buying RJ's, parking widebody aircraft (DC-10's, 747-200's) and hiring pilots.

Think about that.

 

[TAWS]

Questions:

If NWA ALPA merges the lists, does any agreement made by XJ alpa become void, if they no longer exist?
If NWA ALPA merges the list, do they become subject to what XJ ALPA agreed to?
If NWA ALPA merges the list, have they created a de-facto "B-scale" for the XJ guys?

Not stirring the pot, would like Occam to reply, as he seems to have his finger on the pulse.

Thanks,

TAWS

 

[Occam's Razor]

If NWA ALPA merges the lists, does any agreement made by XJ alpa become void, if they no longer exist?

The contracts for both pilot groups would remain in effect until they are fully "integrated". That's the term for a single list. An example of an ALPA/ALPA merger that illustrates the set-up was the NWA/REP merger. The merger was announced in March, 1986. The Policy Implementation Date (snap shot used for integration purposes) was later that year. The two lists remained separate and the contracts operated independently, with different work rules, pay, and benefits until the end of 1989, when the arbitrator issued his award. The LBO of NWA had taken place in '89 as well, and both MEC's ratified the contract at that point. The new Blue Book was the result. Republic Airlines ceased to exist in 1986, with aircraft painted in new livery and pilots wearing the same uniform, but Republic pilots "existed" until the Robert's Award was accepted by all 4 parties . (For the pedanic among us, the Letter of Agreement that established the Dispute Resolution Committee was signed January 20, 1990...the last requirement for final implementation of the Robert's Award)

I was hired after the merger, so I never had a dog in that fight. I just had to pay the #$%@ bills for it!

If NWA ALPA merges the list, do they become subject to what XJ ALPA agreed to?

Depends. Merger Policy requires negotiation with the Company for transition to the single contract. It's possible the process could be completed when the final merged list is announced, but that would only happen if the two pilot groups agreed to the deal without having to let an arbitrator decide.

My guess is NWA management would seek to continue the pay and work rules for XJ pilots as long as possible, and would stall. A possible ALPA strategy in that case would be to seek an arbitrator ASAP, which would put a more rigid timeline on the process of integration.

If NWA ALPA merges the list, have they created a de-facto "B-scale" for the XJ guys?

No. A "B-scale" exists when two pilots on the same aircraft/seat are being paid a different amount, or the pay rates don't "blend". Example: In '89, when the REP B-scale found it's way into the integrated contract, pilots hired into the 727 S/O position were paid two different amounts depending on whether they were hired before October...or after. Same longevity, same category...different rate. At 5 years the rates merged. Since no NWA pilots are flying the SF-340 at any rate, it'd be kinda hard to call whatever rate was established a "B-scale".

The biggest single contractual impediment to merging either of the Airlinks into the mainline disappeared when the Pension was frozen. It would have been tough to assimilate a group that had no form of DB, with a group that had an actively growing one.

Gee! We're lucky, huh?

 

[NuGuy]

Gee! We're lucky, huh?

Heyas Occam,

Speaking of which....rumor has it that NWA botched the startup of Compass with the ACA certificate, and it wound up "dropping dead". They now have to shop for a new one, and that's why XJ is in their sights...any legs to this?

Nu

 

[Fly4hire]

Questions:

If NWA ALPA merges the lists, does any agreement made by XJ alpa become void, if they no longer exist?
If NWA ALPA merges the list, do they become subject to what XJ ALPA agreed to?
If NWA ALPA merges the list, have they created a de-facto "B-scale" for the XJ guys?

TAWS

There will be no merger of lists. XJ will be a wholly owned subsidiary just like PCL was before sold. Look to the NWA pilots CBA for how seats would be handled: except for a possible carve out of 36 former Avro positions, NWA furloughed pilots would have rights to 100% of new positions on SJ's greater than 55 seats (won't happen - they'll all be back at NWA), and flow up for XJ and flow down for NWA pilots.

 

[TAWS]

There will be no merger of lists. XJ will be a wholly owned subsidiary just like PCL was before sold. Look to the NWA pilots CBA for how seats would be handled: except for a possible carve out of 36 former Avro positions, NWA furloughed pilots would have rights to 100% of new positions on SJ's greater than 55 seats (won't happen - they'll all be back at NWA), and flow up for XJ and flow down for NWA pilots.

Would the NWA pilots seek to aggressively merge the lists, thereby signalling an end to the whipsaw game? Wouldn't this benefit you guys in the long run, as you would prevent "seat creep" and send a message to mngt that they will start dealing with XJ as they would NWA pilots (this would also apply to merging the 9E list)?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Heyas Occam,

Speaking of which....rumor has it that NWA botched the startup of Compass with the ACA certificate, and it wound up "dropping dead". They now have to shop for a new one, and that's why XJ is in their sights...any legs to this?

Nu

I haven't heard that. It should be easy to check, though. The certificate is listed as an asset with the court, and the paperwork for using the "Compass" name (listed under the Cargo operation, one of NWA's subsidiaries) is public record.

If NWA proceeds with a purchase of XJ, I think it'll be because they see it as a profit-generatign transaction...either through the purchase (credtors adjusting equity percentages as a result), or through a later sale (a la PCL a few years ago).

 

[Fly4hire]

Would the NWA pilots seek to aggressively merge the lists, thereby signalling an end to the whipsaw game? Wouldn't this benefit you guys in the long run, as you would prevent "seat creep" and send a message to mngt that they will start dealing with XJ as they would NWA pilots (this would also apply to merging the 9E list)?

I think the pilots would be in favor of it - the question is what would it cost? I'm sure NWA would oppose it as less cost effective and attempt to extract a price in negotiations. I don't think the NWA pilot group is in a mood to negotiate concessions in order to benefit another pilot group.

I know the arguement is that it benefits all NWA pilots in the long run, however the whipsaw threat will exist as long as there is a single non-integrated feed (PCL, Compass) so the cost-benefit of integrating XJ will be viewed as a non-starter. If it could be no-cost or revenue enhancing then there might be a chance.

Don't forget that seperating the acft gauges between mainline and feed via Scope is good for the mainline - as soon as the mainline flies anything smaller than the current 77 seat limit the door is open to water down the larger acft positions effectively reducing flying and salaries under the current floor.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Would the NWA pilots seek to aggressively merge the lists, thereby signalling an end to the whipsaw game? Wouldn't this benefit you guys in the long run, as you would prevent "seat creep" and send a message to mngt that they will start dealing with XJ as they would NWA pilots (this would also apply to merging the 9E list)?

If ALPA declared a P.I.D., and initiated ALPA merger policy, NWA management would have to fight it in court...assuming they opposed it. The decision to initiate would be up to the union, not management. If it happened while in Chapter 11, there is no way to predict how the court(s) would handle it.

Maybe that's part of NWA's strategy with the announcement of a possible purchase? They might be trying to do it before ALPA would have more legal footing to force a merger of the pilot groups. [Caution! Understatement ahead] Chapter 11 favors management...

 

[YourPilotFriend]

XJ does not have enough pilots to cover future flying at NWA. This is the main reason you will see separate lists. They have to meter it so compass isn't drained of all its pilots in 6 months. NWA will need to hire from the outside to fill the gaps. I assume they will have to somehow make the ERJ's a mainline operation to attract applicants. If you meet the insurance minimums, you can either:
A. go to SWA, UPS, Fedex, Mainline. or B. go to compass.

The only company that would have enough captains able to staff the new airplanes is mesaba. If you had an ATP, would you come to a NWA regional?

 

[Fly4hire]

XJ does not have enough pilots to cover future flying at NWA.

Your referring to attrition or growth?

This is the main reason you will see separate lists. They have to meter it so compass isn't drained of all its pilots in 6 months.

Are you assuming XJ will be used to staff Compass? I have heard of no linkage on this?

NWA will need to hire from the outside to fill the gaps. I assume they will have to somehow make the ERJ's a mainline operation to attract applicants.

Why? It'll be lower paying than the DC-9, and I think they will already be hiring off the street for that within the year.

The only company that would have enough captains able to staff the new airplanes is mesaba. If you had an ATP, would you come to a NWA regional

If there was a flow through to NWA? Absolutely.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Your referring to attrition or growth?

Why? It'll be lower paying than the DC-9, and I think they will already be hiring off the street for that within the year.

Both actually, I expect that about 500 pilots will retire if the pension remains intact after bankruptcy, and age 65 is no where in sight. Plus NWA has shown growth in 18 787's, additional Buses that are on order, and mainline Sjets. Although the Dc-9s will start leaving the fleet when the impact of the 76 seater can be assessed by the company.

I think the potential problem is keeping captains in the left seat of compass which is going to be quite difficult given the state of the industry. Mesaba is down to 500 pilots from 1000 a year ago. NWA wholly owned airlines will need probably 600+ captains assuming all CRJ/ERJ/saab are kept in house. NWA will have to provide a sweet deal to get the remaining mesaba furloughs back.

There are simply not enough qualified pilots willing to work for what is being paid. Given the costs of the airline competition, the only way to combat this problem is to lower the senior pay and raise the entry level pay. That's not likely, so is this industry going to fall apart from the bottom up? I definitely think so. The RJ's were a huge mistake, although, the renters see a 300% return on each of those things.