NWA Small Jet TA

[PCL_128]

From another thread, a summary of the NWA TA's new scope language:

SMALL JET (SJ) PARAMETERS OF THE NWA / ALPA RESTRUCTURING TENTATIVE AGREEMENT
Highlights of the SJ flying parameters.

1. SJ’s with a certificated seating capacity of 50 seats or less.
• Flown at feeder carriers.
• Unlimited number allowed.
• No limitations on use.
• No limitations on ownership, financing, control, etc.
• No special employment opportunities for furloughed NWA pilots except as provided for the Pinnacle Hiring LOA signed in 2002.

2. SJ’s configured with 51-76 seats not owned, leased, financed, or controlled by NWA and operated at Feeder Carriers flying their own aircraft.
• No limitations on use.
• Must have a certificated seating capacity of 86 seats or less, with the exception that if the CRJ-900LR is operated the maximum seating certification level is 90 seats.
• Limited to 55 aircraft. This total includes the existing 35 Mesaba Avros, which these aircraft are intended to replace.
• The 55 limit may be exceeded on a 1:1 basis with the “entering into service” of a 77-110 seat configured SJ to be flown at NWA mainline. The pay rates and work rules for the 77-110 seat mainline SJ are covered later.
• Furloughed NWA pilots are entitled to 5 new hire jobs at the Feeder Carrier operating the aircraft.
• The Feeder Carrier’s furloughed pilots have first right to any jobs at their airline.
• The furloughed NWA pilots employed at the Feeder Carrier would work under the terms of that carrier’s pilot contract.

3. SJ’s configured with 51-76 seats which are owned, leased, or financed by NWA and operated at Feeder Carriers.
• All parameters are the same as the previous section, and are included in the 55 aircraft limit, except the employment opportunities for furloughed NWA pilots.
• Furloughed NWA pilots would then be entitled to ½ of the Captain and ½ of the First Officer positions created to operate the aircraft provided by NWA. (Except at Mesaba, where there are already pilots operating 35 Avros, which will be replaced.)
• The furloughed NWA pilots employed at the Feeder Carrier would work under the terms of that carrier’s pilot contract.

4. SJ’s configured with 51-76 seats which are flown at a separate wholly owned subsidiary/affiliate of NWA (called “SJet” for now”).
• No limitations on use.
• Must have a certificated seating capacity of 86 seats or less, with the exception that if the CRJ-900LR is operated the maximum seating certification level is 90 seats.
• Limited to 90 total aircraft, which is inclusive of the 55 aircraft limit for the Feeder Carrier flying.
• The 90 aircraft limit may be exceeded on a 1:1 basis with the “entering into service” of a 77-110 seat configured SJ to be flown at NWA mainline.
• Furloughed NWA pilots have the first right to the jobs at “SJet”, but will be on a separate seniority list.
• There would be a “flow up / flow down” between pilots at “SJet” and NWA, including new hire pilots at SJet and NWA. The flow up / down would be subject to metering limitations.
• NWA would be allowed to sell “SJet” after 10 77-110 seat configured Small Jets “are in active service” at NWA mainline.
• If the successor owner of “SJet” does not comply with the Flow Up / Down provisions, the number of 51-76 seat SJs being flown by Feeder Carriers would be required to be reduced to a baseline of 55 aircraft.
• The pay rates and work rules for the “SJet” flying are covered later.
• Note: the trigger for NWA to outsource up to 90 76 seat configured aircraft is dependent upon maintaining the flow up/down process.

5. SJ’s configured with 77-110 seats (118 certificated) would be flown at NWA Mainline at the previously mentioned ratios.
• 1:1 ratio above 55 76 seat SJs operated by Feeder Carriers which are not subsidiaries of NWA.
• 1:1 ratio above 90 76 seat SJs operated by NWA subsidiary “SJet” and other Feeder Carriers.
• Pay rates and work rules for this group are included later and would not include any aircraft with a certified seating capacity greater than 118, or any series of an aircraft type already operated by NWA, such as the 318, B717, etc.
6. A mainline narrowbody fleet threshold (floor) would be established one year after emergence from bankruptcy.

 

[General Lee]

Sounds complex. Too bad the NW guys needed their DB plan, which may still go away. We are not under the same pressures for the DB at DL.


So, does S-JET have planes from 51-76 seats, and then 77-110 seats? Are those flown by mainline pilots only? S-Jet will have some 51-76 seats, but not all of them, right? Can somebody speak Jonnie Cochran for me and set it straight? "If the Airline can't commit(financially), you must give it (to Mesa)."

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

So, does S-JET have planes from 51-76 seats, and then 77-110 seats? Are those flown by mainline pilots only? S-Jet will have some 51-76 seats, but not all of them, right? Can somebody speak Jonnie Cochran for me and set it straight? "If the Airline can't commit(financially), you must give it (to Mesa)."

Bye Bye--General Lee

General, it would seem that NWA management has many options based on the TA language. Although all planes with greater than 76 seats must go to mainline, the planes configured with fewer seats could be apportioned in a number of ways with different rules applying to each scenario. The planes could go to Pinnacle/Mesaba, they could go to a third Airlink, or they could go to a new wholly-owned subsidiary. Each option carries with it different limits and requirements, so it's up to management to decide which way works best for them. I'm not too happy with the language for several reasons, but I feel it's likely to pass by a slim majority. We're probably all going to be stuck with this.

 

[General Lee]

General, it would seem that NWA management has many options based on the TA language. Although all planes with greater than 76 seats must go to mainline, the planes configured with fewer seats could be apportioned in a number of ways with different rules applying to each scenario. The planes could go to Pinnacle/Mesaba, they could go to a third Airlink, or they could go to a new wholly-owned subsidiary. Each option carries with it different limits and requirements, so it's up to management to decide which way works best for them. I'm not too happy with the language for several reasons, but I feel it's likely to pass by a slim majority. We're probably all going to be stuck with this.

PCL,

Thanks. I was struck by the statement Furloughed NW pilots are entitled to 5 (a whopping 5) newhire jobs at the feeder operating the aircraft (51-76 seats). Is that per new aircraft? You're right, there could be plenty of loopholes here, and lots of whipsawing to get new aircraft.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[goin' missed]

delete

 

[wmudriver]

Although all planes with greater than 76 seats must go to mainline,.

That's probably one of the best things about the TA concerning small jets.

 

[PCL_128]

That's probably one of the best things about the TA concerning small jets.

Ain't that the truth. Too bad they couldn't do better.

 

[FurloughedTwice]

Was there any language of some type of flow through for the regional guys at some point in the future.

 

[Yudso]

Furloughed NWA pilots would then be entitled to ½ of the Captain and ½ of the First Officer positions created to operate the aircraft provided by NWA. (Except at Mesaba, where there are already pilots operating 35 Avros, which will be replaced.)

Since the Avro guys are protected from displacement, I think the only effect will be increased upgrade times. If they start replacing crj's at Pinnacle, then there will be displacements.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Was there any language of some type of flow through for the regional guys at some point in the future since I'm sure some will be affected by the flow back of the NWA pilots.

Probably not since the airplanes will be in addition to what that regionals current fleet is. So for instance, if Mesaba got 55 CRJs, pilots at NWA have no right to the 35 replacing the ARJ.

 

[PCL_128]

3. SJ’s configured with 51-76 seats which are owned, leased, or financed by NWA and operated at Feeder Carriers.
• All parameters are the same as the previous section, and are included in the 55 aircraft limit, except the employment opportunities for furloughed NWA pilots.
• Furloughed NWA pilots would then be entitled to ½ of the Captain and ½ of the First Officer positions created to operate the aircraft provided by NWA. (Except at Mesaba, where there are already pilots operating 35 Avros, which will be replaced.)
• The furloughed NWA pilots employed at the Feeder Carrier would work under the terms of that carrier’s pilot contract.

The underlined portion is where I see the likelihood of a flowthrough being created. The MEC of the pilot group getting these aircraft would have to approve of furloughed NWA pilots getting half of the seats on the new planes. It can't just be dictated, it has to be negotiated. This is where the flowthrough would likely be introduced in order to "sell" the idea to the regional pilots getting the planes. Otherwise, they have no incentive to allow mainline pilots to occupy those seats.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The underlined portion is where I see the likelihood of a flowthrough being created. The MEC of the pilot group getting these aircraft would have to approve of furloughed NWA pilots getting half of the seats on the new planes. It can't just be dictated, it has to be negotiated. This is where the flowthrough would likely be introduced in order to "sell" the idea to the regional pilots getting the planes. Otherwise, they have no incentive to allow mainline pilots to occupy those seats.

If they are adding the jets to the current fleet, there is no need for a flow through. The pilots will get at least 1/2 of the upgrades and the unit cost for the airline goes down giving your MEC more bargining leverage. 9E is fine right now with it's flying, Mesaba needs 35 replacement aircraft and the rest will go to SJet. Put maybe the CRJ 705 at XJ, the E170 at SJet and E190 at mainline. That would make a total of 35 CRJs and up to 200 ERJs.

 

[OMG7778]

How is this different?

How is this SJet deal different than what happened with MidAtlantic over at US Air? I am trying to get a grasp of the whole thing. And what happens should NWA decide to sell Sjet or make it public down the road?

PNCL Does not need the new aircraft what they need is to staff what they have and treat their employees better. More than likely I see aircraft leaving PNCL as they are replaced by larger AC flown by SJet that would better serve most markets any how, I hate seeing more flying leaving the majors. Has it been discused as to what happens when or if NWA mainline pilots dont go over to Sjet or walk away? Will they hire from the Street?

It is Us Against the World

OMG

 

[PCL_128]

If they are adding the jets to the current fleet, there is no need for a flow through. The pilots will get at least 1/2 of the upgrades and the unit cost for the airline goes down giving your MEC more bargining leverage.

Come on YPF, you know as well as I do that no MEC is going to allow half of the upgrade slots on their planes go to other pilots without something in return.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Come on YPF, you know as well as I do that no MEC is going to allow half of the upgrade slots on their planes go to other pilots without something in return.

You're getting warmer...

 

[shroomwell]

Come on YPF, you know as well as I do that no MEC is going to allow half of the upgrade slots on their planes go to other pilots without something in return.

It seems pretty simple. NWA says if we buy these jets and lease them to you, then 1/2 of the seats go to furloughed NWA pilots, take it or leave it. Why would there have to be any negotiating?

 

[PCL_128]

It seems pretty simple. NWA says if we buy these jets and lease them to you, then 1/2 of the seats go to furloughed NWA pilots, take it or leave it. Why would there have to be any negotiating?

What if both the MSA and PCL MECs refuse to allow that? Then what does NWA do with the planes? I still stand by my belief that NWA management cares too much about control to allow the flying to go to someone like Beford or Orenstein. They won't allow NWA to control their every move like Pinnacle and Mesaba will. No, if Northwest wants to outsource these planes then they'll need to work out something with PCL or MSA.

 

[i fly boxes]

2. SJ’s configured with 51-76 seats not owned, leased, financed, or controlled by NWA and operated at Feeder Carriers flying their own aircraft.
• No limitations on use.
• Must have a certificated seating capacity of 86 seats or less, with the exception that if the CRJ-900LR is operated the maximum seating certification level is 90 seats.
• Limited to 55 aircraft. This total includes the existing 35 Mesaba Avros, which these aircraft are intended to replace.
• The 55 limit may be exceeded on a 1:1 basis with the “entering into service” of a 77-110 seat configured SJ to be flown at NWA mainline. The pay rates and work rules for the 77-110 seat mainline SJ are covered later.
• Furloughed NWA pilots are entitled to 5 new hire jobs at the Feeder Carrier operating the aircraft.
• The Feeder Carrier’s furloughed pilots have first right to any jobs at their airline.
• The furloughed NWA pilots employed at the Feeder Carrier would work under the terms of that carrier’s pilot contract.

Having seen this statement, I have the following prediction. Mesaba will dumb 35 avros for 55 70 seaters. And they will be a fleet of saabs and seventys. Pinnacle will not change. S jet will take the rest

Im out.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Anybody else notice the option to sell the 55-76 seat operation after there are a certain amount of 77-110 seat jets on property? Hello Mid-Atlantic. Remember the same idiot that came up with that operation at USAir is at NWA now. They've got to keep the best management around, remember?

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Anybody else notice the option to sell the 55-76 seat operation after there are a certain amount of 77-110 seat jets on property? Hello Mid-Atlantic. Remember the same idiot that came up with that operation at USAir is at NWA now. They've got to keep the best management around, remember?

Neal is an NWA original, maybe they sent him out to learn from his mistakes.

 

[FSIGRAD]

So If I got this right, 1/2 of the captain and 1/2 of the FO slots could go to NWA pilots and they would work under the feeder carriers contract..

What mainline pilot is going to want to come over to Mesaba and work for $10,000 a year???

 

[YourPilotFriend]

So If I got this right, 1/2 of the captain and 1/2 of the FO slots could go to NWA pilots and they would work under the feeder carriers contract..

What mainline pilot is going to want to come over to Mesaba and work for $10,000 a year???

Thats the point, they won't. Whomever becomes Sjet is going to have a staffing nightmare.

 

[FurloughedTwice]

You will be surprised how many furloughed NWA pilots will take the job. The way it has worked at other airlines is if they want to quit they can with no repercussions on recall rights. I think a lot of pilots will take advantage of this instead of being on the street while they are looking for a better job.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Brand scope........

 

[surplus1]

Come on YPF, you know as well as I do that no MEC is going to allow half of the upgrade slots on their planes go to other pilots without something in return.

Are you changing your tune? I thought you were one of the dudes that believes all the flying belongs to the mainline anyway and therefore they should get whatever they want. Now you don't want to give them 1/2 of your captain seats?

You hypocritical selfish thing you! What a joke!

 

[Occam's Razor]

What mainline pilot is going to want to come over to Mesaba and work for $10,000 a year???

I believe they will carry their longevity (for pay) to the job. There will be a training freeze with the move.

 

[PCL_128]

Are you changing your tune? I thought you were one of the dudes that believes all the flying belongs to the mainline anyway and therefore they should get whatever they want. Now you don't want to give them 1/2 of your captain seats?

You hypocritical selfish thing you! What a joke!

Nope, tune hasn't changed a bit. Sorry to disappoint you.

The NWA pilots own the flying, but they have chosen to allow outsourcing of it for the duration of this CBA, asuming it gets ratified by the membership. The TA language guarantees the furloughed pilots 1/2 of the slots. So, if management wants to outsource that flying then they will have to make it worth the while of the regional pilots to accept giving up half of the upgrade slots. If NWA management refuses to provide this flowthrough to the regional pilots that they want to give the planes to, then they'll simply have to give the planes to someone else or not give them to anyone. This isn't a mainline vs regional pilot thing like you think everything is. The NWA pilots have already negotiated their end of the deal. Now NWA management has to comply with the language in order to outsource those planes. Somehow they will have to convince a regional pilot group to make allowances in their vacancy language. Without a flowthrough, they'll be dead in the water.

 

[DeucesWild]

Without a flowthrough, they'll be dead in the water.

It is obvious to tell what you really want to happen. You say you want the flying to be done at mainline, but what you really want is to fly the new shiny jets at Pinnacle and then have your flowthrough to NWA.

You bought your job at GIA (who then bought you a job at PCL so they could sell another job to someone with SJS). It would be great if your PCL job would flow you through to mainline NWA. If that happens, I guess the money spent buying the job at GIA was money well spent.

Too bad it was at the expense of a great deal of mainline NWA pilots. You have to live with yourself.

 

[PCL_128]

It is obvious to tell what you really want to happen. You say you want the flying to be done at mainline, but what you really want is to fly the new shiny jets at Pinnacle and then have your flowthrough to NWA.

Sorry, not even close. The idea of spending the rest of my career commuting to DTW and working for the sadistic scumbags in management at Northwest isn't exactly my idea of fun. However, if NWA management wants to outsource that flying, then they're going to have to give something for it. Regional pilots deserve the opportunity to flowthrough if they are going to allow leniency in their vacancy language for upgrade slots. Management isn't going to get this for free.

 

[81Horse]

... The idea of spending the rest of my career commuting to DTW and working for the sadistic scumbags in management at Northwest isn't exactly my idea of fun. ...

You've just described working for the mainline.

Careful what you wish for.