NWA reaches TA with pilots

[shon7]

NWA February load factor = 81.8%

So, shon, according to you reaching a TA doesn't help the airline or the pilots? WTF? We shouldn't have threatened to strike but should have just bent over and taken whatever NW mercifully gave us? GMAFB.

Yeah -- the deal for the pilots will be soooo much better now. The strike threat really worked wonders.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yeah -- the deal for the pilots will be soooo much better now. The strike threat really worked wonders.

The strike threat was necessary. It was critical to the pilots negotiating leverage. Imagine if the vote turn out was low or many pilots voted no.

 

[81Horse]

shon, you're an idiot. You have no horse in this race (as far as I can tell), so go shovel your anti-labor manure in another thread.

It was only the promise of a strike that made a T/A possible. The agreement will be ugly, and will still have to be voted on by NWA pilots; they may -- or may not -- prefer it to burning down the hangar.

 

[shon7]

As for the load factor --

So far this year, Northwest (Pink Sheets: NWACQ) has seen Revenue Passenger Miles decrease 7.1 percent from 11.3 billion in the 2005 period to 10.5 billion year-to-date 2006.

The airline is also down 11.9 percent for the year in Available Seat Miles (14.67 billion in 2005 compared to 12.92 billion so far this year),

and down 6.5 percent in enplaned passengers (8.30 million in 2005 compared to 7.76 million so far this year).

For the year, load factor was 81.3 percent, 4.2 points above the same period in 2005.

February load factor was 81.8 percent, 4.2 points above February 2005. A load factor is a ratio of passengers actually carried versus the total passenger capacity of a vehicle.

If the denominator decreases your overall result will go up . Elementary Mathematics.

 

[xjhawk]

so as per your pilot friend......okay how long would it take NWA to start a new certificate or aquire a new one?You say that they would abandon all their stock options and 100 million in bankruptcy releif which Mesaba (MAIR Holdings) to just leave behind such an investment? Lets see who owns a bunch of MAIR stock.....Carl polad....and from what i hear, a few others associated with NWA......not to mention the 30-40% stock in MAIR holdings with options for more....sounds like a bunch of bull that they would let MEsaba wither to nothing. But then i am hopeful for MEsaba since i am there now, as per My pilot friends posts over the last few weeks, you might have some inside info, but i seriously doubt it, i think you just like spreading rumors............

 

[rtmcfi]

As for the load factor --

So far this year, Northwest (Pink Sheets: NWACQ) has seen Revenue Passenger Miles decrease 7.1 percent from 11.3 billion in the 2005 period to 10.5 billion year-to-date 2006.

The airline is also down 11.9 percent for the year in Available Seat Miles (14.67 billion in 2005 compared to 12.92 billion so far this year),

and down 6.5 percent in enplaned passengers (8.30 million in 2005 compared to 7.76 million so far this year).

For the year, load factor was 81.3 percent, 4.2 points above the same period in 2005.

February load factor was 81.8 percent, 4.2 points above February 2005. A load factor is a ratio of passengers actually carried versus the total passenger capacity of a vehicle.

If the denominator decreases your overall result will go up . Elementary Mathematics.

So, what does any of this have to do with the threat of a strike? Looks to me like NW took some excess capacity out of the system. Pilots are neither to bless or blame. Shon, what would you have done in the NW pilots shoes?

 

[Bringupthebird]

Or, it will affect everyone flying for an airline, even the Navy guys who couldn't get in the Air Force.

Well the Southwest guys didn't think that they were affecting the industry when they took the lowest paying 737 positions out there to help their airline become a low-cost powerhouse. Now when concessions are required to adapt to what WN brought, WN pilots show concern. Curious?

 

[canyonblue]

Well the Southwest guys didn't think that they were affecting the industry when they took the lowest paying 737 positions out there to help their airline become a low-cost powerhouse. Now when concessions are required to adapt to what WN brought, WN pilots show concern. Curious?

Well I believe those guys were fighting for their lives against Continental Lite, United Shuttle, Metrojet, Delta Express and even more before that, but how would you know, you were in grade school. I think industry leading pay wasn't even an option for those guys, let alone have a small 737 operator be the benchmark that all aspire to. Bringupthebird, more like Bringuptheclue.uke:

 

[BigDave]

Well the Southwest guys didn't think that they were affecting the industry when they took the lowest paying 737 positions out there to help their airline become a low-cost powerhouse. Now when concessions are required to adapt to what WN brought, WN pilots show concern. Curious?

What did a SWA plane cut you off the other day? Lighten up there buddy.

 

[COpilot]

USA $133/hr
Sprit $130/hr
Frontier $157/hr
Airtran $153/hr

Of course these are just a few 12yr hourly rates at some LCC; but I'll be interested to see how far below these NWA management needs their pilots to be so they can compete. Heck, Frontier already pays more than DC10/A330.

P.S., Good Luck NWA crews, I'd like to suggest; Don't vote based on just a bullet point memo. Make sure you see a whole review of the contract, we found all kinds of back door B.S. in our Contract '02 after the book had already arrived.

 

[regionaltard]

let alone have a small 737 operator be the benchmark that all aspire to.

That'll be 15 yards and loss of down for premature self-congratulation.

 

[SWA/FO]

Why would a SWA pilot care about possible concessions at NW?

Because I have a chip on my shoulder just like the United States Navy Fed Ex Dude said.

Why would a United States Navy Fed Ex dude care about what the SWA/FO types on a NWA thread anyway? Why would a United States Navy Fed Ex dude care about NWA?

I wonder how my "you think" - makes me have a chip on my shoulder? I've been following the details of this, I happen to have a few friends & neighbors that work there.

I've been going to bat for the NWA folks everyday explaining to the common folk (the lay people) about what is really going on there. Sadly, everyone seems to only worry about their future travels, not about the employees of NWA. So, I guess you could say its the employees of NWA v. the World. How much sympathy you think you will get from the common folk when Fed Ex goes on strike? None. They will just drive over to the UPS store and ship. So why are you here USNFDX dude?

 

[SWA/FO]

Well the Southwest guys didn't think that they were affecting the industry when they took the lowest paying 737 positions out there to help their airline become a low-cost powerhouse. Now when concessions are required to adapt to what WN brought, WN pilots show concern. Curious?

Southwest Pilots worry about their house, its simple. Our house is in order, always has been. We didn't tell you how to build your house. Why worry about our house?

 

[pw4000]

Yea pay cuts less days off sweet

 

[DTW320]

USA $133/hr
Sprit $130/hr
Frontier $157/hr
Airtran $153/hr

Of course these are just a few 12yr hourly rates at some LCC; but I'll be interested to see how far below these NWA management needs their pilots to be so they can compete. Heck, Frontier already pays more than DC10/A330.

Actually current NWA 330 CA is at $159.13 but your point is certainly taken.

P.S., Good Luck NWA crews, I'd like to suggest; Don't vote based on just a bullet point memo. Make sure you see a whole review of the contract, we found all kinds of back door B.S. in our Contract '02 after the book had already arrived.

Definately agree about the need for full language. Thanks for the Good Luck.

 

[DTW320]

Dear little shon,

Here is your original claim:

Yeah. This is great. Threaten to strike so that passengers shy away from the airline. Then reach a TA. Neither helps the airline nor helps the pilots.

Then you go on to detail how NWA enplaned pax are down 6.5% YTD compared to 2005. But NWA ASM's are down 11.9% for the same period. So shon, using "elementary mathmatics" please tell us how pax decreasing much less % wise than the capacity is decreasing = passengers shying away from the airline due to the strike threat. Oh yeah, you also never answered the ? about how reaching a TA is bad for the airline and pilots as you claimed in your original post. Typical.

Maybe you should go practice "elementary mathmatics" on your 150hr logbook in your c150 and come back when you get a clue.

 

[xanderman]

finally some rational thought

Pilots at the mainline carriers realize management will try to scope out and outsource as much has they can, infact they will do it at any level.

Capture the flying and work on the pay rates.

AA

I could not have said it any better!!!!
Andy

 

[Falconjet]

Yeah. This is great. Threaten to strike so that passengers shy away from the airline. Then reach a TA. Neither helps the airline nor helps the pilots.

Now its Deltas turn to do the same.

Shon: I realize that everything is all peaches and cream over there at jB, but just imagine for a moment if you will this scenario.

Say that jetBlue decided to bring on the E-190 to replace the Bus instead of augment it. They also decide that they would rather start over with a new company and new pilots to reduce their costs. This might reduce your pilot ranks by oh, 25-30%. On top of that those that are left will have to take a 20% pay cut.

I know it couldn’t happen because of that wonderful 5 year contract you have with them, but just for a moment imagine that jB management got a judge to throw out that nice 5 year furlough pay deal because they couldn’t abide by their agreement and still be competitive. So the bottom 25-30% of your pilot group just got the axe so that the company could go replace them with some newer, cheaper labor.

Do you think that jB pilots might consider forming a union to protect what was left of their interests if jB management had treated them that way? Do you think that maybe a few of the jB pilots might be less than thrilled with that turn of events and might want to demonstrate their feelings to management? Do you think that some of the ones not furloughed would decide that it might be better to look elsewhere for employment rather than stay behind after that kind of treatment from management?


With a strike vote the NW pilots are telling management loud and clear that IF the company was to impose those actions on them that the job wasn’t worth it to them anymore and they would withhold their services. At some point the job isn’t worth having if the working conditions forced upon you are too onerous and the pay too low. .


That is why they had the strike vote, and in my opinion that was the only way they had to let management know that they had finally had enough. Cards on the table, if you want a newco, you can have the whole enchilada. Did it hurt business? Probably, but some times you have to take a stand for what is right, and bear the consequences. If you want to blame someone, blame management, who refused to even negotiate with the union on the scope issue and wouldn't budge on their demand for wage cuts in the slightest. They pushed the issue to the brink, not the pilots.


I commend the pilots at NW for demonstrating this, and expect that those at Delta will soon follow with similar results.

I am not naïve enough to think that the mere presence of a union on the property could prevent furloughs, concessions or loss of scope. I do, however, feel that a united pilot group stands a better chance of protecting the majority’s interests than one that isn’t. I think these two cases demonstrate that very fact.


Best of luck to both the NW and DAL pilot groups.


FJ

 

[COpilot]

I have a question, what did the pilots gain through a negotiated TA. On yahoo, the wire is reporting that NWA got the $365million in cuts, bringing the total to a approx. 50% pay cut over the last two years. Well thats what they wanted imposed in the 1113 isn't it?

Of course I relize that there are many parts to the complete agreement, but what did the other side do for us. (they the NW pilot group)

 

[wil]

How do you thank passengers when you've just taken 35-50% paycuts to fly their cheap arse (and the company still loses money!)?
I guess my mainline asperations are truly shiite!

 

[Bringupthebird]

Southwest Pilots worry about their house, its simple. Our house is in order, always has been. We didn't tell you how to build your house. Why worry about our house?

Because when SW came along they brought tract home living to the industry. Those who were all too happy to help them in their endevor have no right to criticize those concessions that may come to an airline near them soon.

 

[canyonblue]

You have no idea what you are even talking about, let alone what happens or has happened in this industry. Where do you work, I see you don't post that part.

 

[DTW320]

I have a question, what did the pilots gain through a negotiated TA. On yahoo, the wire is reporting that NWA got the $365million in cuts, bringing the total to a approx. 50% pay cut over the last two years. Well thats what they wanted imposed in the 1113 isn't it?

Of course I realize that there are many parts to the complete agreement, but what did the other side do for us. (they the NW pilot group)

Thats a great question. Even though we haven't seen the details yet I've heard it has mainly come down to the differences in valuation of different items. This was talked about a lot internally at NWA. NWA says change X is worth 50 million. NWAALPA says no, its worth 85 million. They negotiate that and arrive at ? million. Then it's on to change Y and what its valued at etc. Both sides likely moved in the valuation of different things. The TA could be "valued" at $365 mil but what specific contract changes make up that amount could be very different from what was originally proposed.

Don't forget that the 365million savings figure is from our previous (pre 12/2005) agreement, not the interim agreement in effect now.

 

[Juniority]

Because when SW came along they brought tract home living to the industry. Those who were all too happy to help them in their endevor have no right to criticize those concessions that may come to an airline near them soon.

It's Jimmy Carter you're angry at, not Southwest. Try to separate the message from the messenger. Airline de-regulation not the LCCs that it spawned.

 

[AAflyer]

It's Jimmy Carter you're angry at, not Southwest. Try to separate the message from the messenger. Airline de-regulation not the LCCs that it spawned.

You mean Alfred Kahn..


AAflyer

 

[blzr]

As for the load factor --

So far this year, Northwest (Pink Sheets: NWACQ) has seen Revenue Passenger Miles decrease 7.1 percent from 11.3 billion in the 2005 period to 10.5 billion year-to-date 2006.

The airline is also down 11.9 percent for the year in Available Seat Miles (14.67 billion in 2005 compared to 12.92 billion so far this year),

and down 6.5 percent in enplaned passengers (8.30 million in 2005 compared to 7.76 million so far this year).

For the year, load factor was 81.3 percent, 4.2 points above the same period in 2005.

February load factor was 81.8 percent, 4.2 points above February 2005. A load factor is a ratio of passengers actually carried versus the total passenger capacity of a vehicle.



If the denominator decreases your overall result will go up . Elementary Mathematics.

Who is responsable for this??? DAMNNNNN... Management comes up with a buisness plan, advertizing, and everything else. HMMMM>>>> Everything's gone to He11 in a handbasket, lets blame the pilots. Sounds like a plan to me!!

 

[Dangerkitty]

Yeah. This is great. Threaten to strike so that passengers shy away from the airline. Then reach a TA. Neither helps the airline nor helps the pilots.

Now its Deltas turn to do the same.

Junior you dont have a freaking clue. Go back to being a Captain on your little Skyhawk.

 

[737 Pylt]

Yeah -- the deal for the pilots will be soooo much better now. The strike threat really worked wonders.

Shon:
I see with all your experience you have much to offer! How about worrying about turns around a point, and let the NWA pilots worry about dealing with their PWA!
737

 

[FN FAL]

That'll be 15 yards and loss of down for premature self-congratulation.

Hahahahah...good pulp ficition reference.

 

[jetflier]

Dear little shon,

Here is your original claim:

Then you go on to detail how NWA enplaned pax are down 6.5% YTD compared to 2005. But NWA ASM's are down 11.9% for the same period. So shon, using "elementary mathmatics" please tell us how pax decreasing much less % wise than the capacity is decreasing = passengers shying away from the airline due to the strike threat. Oh yeah, you also never answered the ? about how reaching a TA is bad for the airline and pilots as you claimed in your original post. Typical.

Maybe you should go practice "elementary mathmatics" on your 150hr logbook in your c150 and come back when you get a clue.

...........You know,you're not being fair to Shon.

Most Flight instructors have more than 150 hours......and many do fly heavy iron, 182's, PA 28, even various twins.

Some have even graduated from college! GEESH !