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NWA Pilots Want to Fly 70 Seat RJs

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storminpilot

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 6, 2003
Posts
282
http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/4897967.html
Last update: July 28, 2004 at 6:56 AM
Northwest pilots offer to fly small jets, for smaller paychecks

Liz Fedor, Star Tribune July 28, 2004 NWA0728

Pilot leaders at Northwest Airlines say they are willing to negotiate a lower pay scale that would allow the carrier to add 70-seat jets to its fleet.

The pilots union said its proposal would preserve jobs while at the same time help Northwest to capitalize on one of the fastest-growing segments in the airline industry.

Northwest declined to comment on the pilot proposal Tuesday. The Eagan-based airline does not have any 70-seat jets in its fleet. Its smaller jets have fewer than 70 seats and are flown by lower-paid pilots at its regional affiliates, Mesaba Airlines and Pinnacle Airlines. Northwest wants regional pilots to also be able to fly 70-seat jets, which the current Northwest contract prohibits, the union said.

Instead of allowing Northwest to assign the flying to Mesaba or Pinnacle or another regional airline, pilot leaders are offering to negotiate labor costs that are competitive with other 70-seat operators.

"What they want is 70-seaters," Curt Kruse, a pilot and spokesman for the Northwest branch of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), said Tuesday.

ALPA negotiators argue that it is in the best interests of the airline and the union to establish pay rates, benefits and work rules that allow Northwest to compete for 70-seat business.

"We believe the 70-seater is the right size aircraft to fill the gap between the Northwest narrow-body aircraft and the small jets currently flown by Northwest's feeders," Kruse said.

Under the current contract, all Northwest flying in airplanes containing 55 seats or more must be performed by Northwest pilots, except for three dozen 69-seat Avros flown by Eagan-based Mesaba.

Pinnacle, based in Memphis, is flying 44- and 50-seat Canadair Regional Jets (CRJs), but the number of 50-seaters is restricted based on a ratio with the narrow-bodied planes in Northwest's mainline fleet.

In April, Pinnacle CEO Philip Trenary said he'd like to see his airline fly larger airplanes. But he acknowledged that Northwest management probably wants to conclude its pilot negotiations before making decisions about acquiring more small jets.

Northwest has been reducing its workforce since early 2001 and 787 Northwest pilots remain on furloughs. They would have the first rights to obtain the 70-seat flying, according to the proposal that ALPA gave management July 1.

The union is awaiting a counter-proposal from management.

Northwest gave the pilots union a concessionary proposal in February 2003 that would have reduced pilot costs by more than $400 million a year. Management also asked ALPA to allow Northwest to acquire up to 72 small jets seating between 51 and 70 passengers. Executives wanted to remove all restrictions on small jets with 50 or fewer seats. And they wanted to expand seating on Mesaba's Avros from 69 to 85 seats.

A few months ago, Northwest ALPA offered to reduce pilot compensation by $200 million a year. The company has countered with a $300 million proposal.

Both sides hope to reach an agreement by the fall, because the airline has been losing money on its operations for the past three years. Northwest management is seeking to reduce all labor costs by $950 million a year, but the pilots' union is the only work group that has been willing to discuss cutbacks.

The 70-seater jet is a critical topic in the pilot negotiations, because it is a key aspect of defining the scope of flying for Northwest pilots.

There is a strong element of pragmatism in the pilots' approach because they are balancing Northwest's business interests with pilots' job protection interests, Kruse said.

That element was evident in a memo that pilot negotiators sent their members. "Pilot hourly pay rates at airlines currently operating 70-seat jets are significantly lower than pay rates under the NWA pilot contract," Northwest ALPA said in a mailing to pilots. "The difference in total pilot costs is even more pronounced due to differences in work rules, benefits and retirement."

Northwest ALPA included a comparison chart in its mailing that showed the estimated pilot cost per block hour for flying a 70-seat jet. It was $274.85 for Mesaba Airlines, $304.71 for Comair and $249.59 for American Eagle. There isn't a 70-seat rate in Northwest's current pilot contract, but the block hour cost would be $705.47 if the DC-9 rate were used.

That current contract says Northwest pilots have the right to fly jets of over 55 seats, with the one exception being the Mesaba Avros. "We want to translate that language into jobs," Kruse said, but the jobs won't materialize under the existing pay rates, work rules and benefits.

Northwest ALPA's proposal is reminiscent of talks that have been held at American Airlines, said Robert Mann, an airline industry analyst from New York. But American Eagle, the regional carrier, is flying the 70-seaters.

"Unless you bring along flight attendants, mechanics and ground personnel to similar regional pay rates, then you can't equalize the costs," Mann said. American was unable to achieve that goal, and he added that it will be a major challenge for Northwest management.

Liz Fedor is at
 
storminpilot said:
"Unless you bring along flight attendants, mechanics and ground personnel to similar regional pay rates, then you can't equalize the costs," Mann said. American was unable to achieve that goal, and he added that it will be a major challenge for Northwest management.
That is the part that will never happen!
 
"That is the part that will never happen!"

That's to be seen. There is more than one "creative" option to make this happen. One, give Mesaba or Pinnacle the option to operate the aircraft with mainline seniority list pilots if their are some on furlough. If they both scream "only if you go to the bottom of the list" like a lot on this forum do then option two. Start a third feeder consisting of all 70 seaters and contract out the maintenance, flight attendants and ground personnel. I'm sure Mesaba or Pinnacle would love to pick up the contracts. Can't imagine their ground personnel or flight attendants would mind either as it would increase their jobs (seniority). If not, hire new ones as they would need to be hired to backfill flying anyways.

I truely believe that by the time 70 seaters showed up in our colors, all forloughees will be recalled and company would have to hire more pilots to fly them if they were not at Mesaba or Pinnacle. If Mesaba / Pinnacle were agree to staff the pilots, then a flowback agreement would be their only threat in the event of a future furlough.

Just my thoughts after talking to a few knowledgable folks.

Before anyone throws spears at me, I'm just letting out some info I'm hearing. I personnally have no intention of ever flying the 70 seaters. Hooked back up with the Military for the next several years. Expect to be safely at mainline by the time I return.
 
I truely believe that by the time 70 seaters showed up in our colors, all forloughees will be recalled and company would have to hire more pilots to fly them if they were not at Mesaba or Pinnacle. If Mesaba / Pinnacle were agree to staff the pilots, then a flowback agreement would be their only threat in the event of a future furlough.
Mesaba and Pinnacle pilot staffing? All you need to have that happen is vote out your scope clause.
 
Won't happen without furloughed NWA seniority lists pilots flying them. This would leave Mesaba / Pinnacle pilots to staff the aircraft after the furlough list has been exhausted.

In essence, a flowback to the top of the seniority list (currently doesn't exist). If this won't work, start a third feeder operation with positions other than pilots contracted out. Pilot positions would be only from mainline seniority list and new hiring would be done directly to the 70 seat operation.

This is just a big picture of what "could" develop. Obviously, we'll have to wait and see. As usual, the devil will be in the details.
 
Schwanker said:
Won't happen without furloughed NWA seniority lists pilots flying them. This would leave Mesaba / Pinnacle pilots to staff the aircraft after the furlough list has been exhausted.

In essence, a flowback to the top of the seniority list (currently doesn't exist). If this won't work, start a third feeder operation with positions other than pilots contracted out. Pilot positions would be only from mainline seniority list and new hiring would be done directly to the 70 seat operation.

This is just a big picture of what "could" develop. Obviously, we'll have to wait and see. As usual, the devil will be in the details.
If I were a lawyer for Mesaba's or Pinacle's union, I'd love to see you guys outsource those 70 seaters.
 
Schwanker said:
start a third feeder operation with positions other than pilots contracted out.
So for all intents and purposes NWA would ignore the Flight Attendants scope language?
 
"If I were a lawyer for Mesaba's or Pinacle's union, I'd love to see you guys outsource those 70 seaters."

Why? Are they entitled to fly them? NWA can start a third operation with no strings attached to Pinnacle / Mesaba.



"So for all intents and purposes NWA would ignore the Flight Attendants scope language?"

Which language would that be? With members also on furlough, many flight attendants may like to work an agreement to staff another feeder operation if costs prevent a 70 seater from existing at mainline.


Again, I personnally really don't care if NWA system ever sees 70 seaters. It would probably be good for the operation if they can be flown at a low enough cost. Just passing on some info I've been told. Don't really intend on arguing the merits or legalities.

Take Care.
 
Not to mention the Maintenance or customer service scope. Under their respective contracts, a NW aircraft must be serviced and maintained by their respective personel. Thats one reason that you dont see 9s and bus's being interchanged into stations that might support them, but are not NW stations. Ask the station personell at SGF about that. Bottom line, They hopefully will be operated by senority pilots, but dont hold your breath about them being operated by "NWA".
 
"If I were a lawyer for Mesaba's or Pinacle's union, I'd love to see you guys outsource those 70 seaters."

Why? Are they entitled to fly them? NWA can start a third operation with no strings attached to Pinnacle / Mesaba.
I wouldn't be so sure of that...outsourcing the 70 seaters to a third independant carrier, while limiting Mesaba and Pinnacle to less than that, would be a real interesting court case. Ever heard of the RJDC? I would think that at the worst case scenario, your union could risk losing in court and that there could be a penetration of the scope clause.

Besides, once management realized that you guys don't care about your own "scope" clause regarding 70 seaters and outsourcing, what would prevent them from outsourcing all of NWA flying?

I would imagine that NWA and it's pilot's union are hard at work looking at the ramifications that this holds for them and their future. The fact that the pilots have considered 70 seat flying at a lesser rate than their current contract and the fact that the company is interested in having it's in house NWA guys fly the smaller aircraft, that this indicates a long term change coming to NWA's market and operations configuration.

With Jetblue, SWA, Independance Air, Mesa, Airtran and all the others biting at the heels of the legacy carriers for market share, I can only imagine that NWA and it's pilot union are looking at the playing field and determining how to pursue a leaner, more competitive game plan.

In other words...I think you guys are going to be flying the 70 seaters.

If you change the scope clause and give the planes to your code sharing partners, then your guys will have to go work there if they want to get off the street. But then you have to change the scope to do that.

If you keep the 70 seaters in house and let Mesaba and Pinnacle guys move up into them...then their unions will have to look at what happened over American Eagle and realize that once the flow through/flow back can of worms is opened up, it could backfire. (especially now that everyone realizes that flow backs REALLY do happen). I think after the 400 seniority numbers were opened up at Eagle after federal arbitration, a lot of regional union guys are going to be thinking twice about signing a flow through agreement and the risk that comes with it.
 
Hey Schwanker,

What does the MEC over there think the feasibility of some sort of SSL with the Mesaba and Pinnacle pilot groups would be in order to institute a sort of brand scope of all NWA flying. Obviously the Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots seniority would have to first be integrated between those two airlines, followed by a stapling of the seniority lists. But, I thought that I had heard that your MEC was exploring this as one of many possible options in order to secure the 70 seaters at mainline.
 
A single senority list would solve alot of problems.

However.......I don't think that there is an airline management out there that is ever going to allow mainline and their respective "regional" lists to be merged. They have too much to lose to allow that to happen (lower-cost employee group, "whipsaw" ability, etc.). The negotiating power of a single-list employee group would end up being too great.

By the same token, I don't think that there is an employee group out there, mainline or regional, that has the negotiating capital to insist on a merged list.
 
"Northwest ALPA included a comparison chart in its mailing that showed the estimated pilot cost per block hour for flying a 70-seat jet. It was $274.85 for Mesaba Airlines, $304.71 for Comair and $249.59 for American Eagle. There isn't a 70-seat rate in Northwest's current pilot contract, but the block hour cost would be $705.47 if the DC-9 rate were used."

Could someone point me to the reference used to determine that a Flight Crew (Captain and First Officer) makes $705/hr? or did I mis-interpret the above info?
 
Scope...

Sure is tough to get that genie back in the bottle, eh?
 
Saluki Dawg said:
Hey Schwanker,

What does the MEC over there think the feasibility of some sort of SSL with the Mesaba and Pinnacle pilot groups would be in order to institute a sort of brand scope of all NWA flying. Obviously the Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots seniority would have to first be integrated between those two airlines, followed by a stapling of the seniority lists. But, I thought that I had heard that your MEC was exploring this as one of many possible options in order to secure the 70 seaters at mainline.
It's been discussed, but just as others have said, it may cost us as management would strongly oppose it. Also, there would probably (and I'm sure others here would confirm) be strong opposition from the feeders to a staple, even though I'm sure 90+ percent would give up their seniority number in a heartbeat to be at mainline. To answer your question, I believe our MEC would be in favor if it were a staple and if management would keep mainline payrates / bennies intact for mainline equipment. Also, the 70 seat proposition includes additional scope of its own to prevent any errosion of mainline flying. This would also have to be included with this idea of "brand scope."

As to securing 70 seaters at mainline, that's the only place they can go if NWA wishes to fly them. This is why are MEC is "conceding" some mainline pay rates / bennies to allow NWA to fly them on the cheap (with respect to labor).
 
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Also, there would probably (and I'm sure others here would confirm) be strong opposition from the feeders to a staple, even though I'm sure 90+ percent would give up their seniority number in a heartbeat to be at mainline.
Yea, how about that mainline seniority number with no mainline retirement benies, the same old regional pilot pay, the same old regional type airplane and years of waiting for the furloghed mainline guys to come back to work before ever seeing one benefit of that mainline seniority number?

Something just isn't right here. I have never heard of an airline union giving up nothing for free and the concept of a "flow through" agreement has fallen on deaf ears at the NWA Alpa for as long as there has been such a concept.

PSA just got it's 70 seat Jets for Jobs agreement with USAir...if them 70 seat airplanes aren't good enough for your own guys to fly em, why don't you just take one seat out and give the dam things to pinnacle and mesaba and be done with it?

Press ReleaseSource: Air Line Pilots Association


PSA ALPA Pilots Reach Agreement on 70-Seat Jets
Monday July 26, 8:33 am ET


DAYTON, Ohio, July 26 /PRNewswire/ -- The PSA Airlines pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), International, late last week approved a letter of agreement (LOA) with their management, spelling out the terms and conditions for operating 70-seat jets. By a vote of 8-1, the pilot leadership ratified the proposal.

"We are extremely pleased to reach a settlement with our management for this aircraft," said Capt. William Barnett, secretary-treasurer of the PSA pilots' unit of ALPA. "We want to see PSA prosper and grow. The operation of these larger jets will help us to provide better service and coverage for our portion of the US Airways network."

The LOA provides for the extension of the 50-50 staffing ratio, as outlined in the Jets for Jobs protocol with US Airways and its pilots. Under this arrangement, furloughed US Airways pilots are entitled to fill half of the positions assigned to this aircraft, per the limitations of this agreement. The PSA pilots will staff the remaining half of these positions. The LOA also provides positive reserve rule changes and other quality-of-life improvements for PSA pilots.

ALPA, the world's oldest and largest union of airline pilots, represents 64,000 pilots at 42 carriers. Visit the ALPA website: http://www.alpa.org.
 
IP076 said:
"Northwest ALPA included a comparison chart in its mailing that showed the estimated pilot cost per block hour for flying a 70-seat jet. It was $274.85 for Mesaba Airlines, $304.71 for Comair and $249.59 for American Eagle. There isn't a 70-seat rate in Northwest's current pilot contract, but the block hour cost would be $705.47 if the DC-9 rate were used."

Could someone point me to the reference used to determine that a Flight Crew (Captain and First Officer) makes $705/hr? or did I mis-interpret the above info?
At first I thought those rates were the total cost of operating the aircraft per hour. But then I re-read it and it said "estimated pilot cost per block hour". I looked up Comair pay on www.airlinepilotpay.com, and assuming a maxed out Captain and FO (yr 18 on CRJ700), they make combined $162 per hour. If you include vacation time/sick time/training costs/recurrents/health care/travel/other bennies it might reach $304.

Dunno, I don't know enough of the other costs of employing pilots to tell - I haven't seen the chart nor the info behind it either.

iaflyer
 
iaflyer said:
At first I thought those rates were the total cost of operating the aircraft per hour. But then I re-read it and it said "estimated pilot cost per block hour". I looked up Comair pay on www.airlinepilotpay.com, and assuming a maxed out Captain and FO (yr 18 on CRJ700), they make combined $162 per hour. If you include vacation time/sick time/training costs/recurrents/health care/travel/other bennies it might reach $304.

Dunno, I don't know enough of the other costs of employing pilots to tell - I haven't seen the chart nor the info behind it either.

iaflyer

Keep in mind the pay and benefits costs for the two pilots in the aircraft are not the only costs. You have to include the costs of pilots not in the aircraft. People on reserve, for example. Depending on the work rules, there may be many people getting paid for hours they did not fly. The only true way to get the costs per block hour is to take the total costs of all CRJ700 pilots and divide it by the total block hours.
 
IPO76

Re: crew cost, here's the specifics behind the numbers:

NWA longevity Scale is 12yrs. Some Feeder longevity scales are 18yrs. Estimated pay rates shown are the average longevity of pilots who likely hold the indicated positions-assumes 14yr captain & 5yr FO for all but NWA, which is 12yr captain & 2yr FO. Est. total pilot cost per block hour includes training, vacation, benefits, retirement, taxes, expenses, etc. & is estimated from the Dept. of Transportation Form 41 data adjusted for current pay rates.

 

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