NWA MEC and the CRJ 900?

[Fly4hire]

If he gets furloughed from NWA he has the option to compass or Mesaba captain as a senior pilot, then defer for up to 14 years. This would result in a windfall for the NWA furlough and a hardship for either a compass or Mesaba pilot. This is just a horrible situation all around in an economic downturn, especially if there is a merger between delta and NWA and age 65 passes, in this situation all mesaba and compass pilots would be furloughed.

Yes it is, accept said Compass or XJ pilots would never have had the opportunity to fly those aircraft had NWA pilots not agreed to it in exchange for the aforementioned jobs.

So if we actually have to exercise those negotiated rights we are "screwing" the JX or Compass pilots? Too f******g bad! The windfall is they get to fly 76 seat jets NOW in exchange for protections for us later.

Personally I'd rather just have the jets and the jobs on NWA property without the baggage of Compass and XJ.

 

[XJohXJ]

Unfortunately, list integration is the only way this won't be a total screw job against XJ ALPA pilots. If there is unlimited flow down, then there has to also be unlimited flow up, not some crappy "metered" scheme.

I know I'm probably dreaming, but it would be nice to see some cooperation between ALPA groups on this.

 

[titans10]

Where are you getting the language for Compass on the FLow up/down? Or are you assuming it is the same language as XJ?

It will be the same for xj due to the fact that xj and compass will be under the same provision under the nwa contract. xj and compass one and the same.

 

[Schwanker]

Yes it is, accept said Compass or XJ pilots would never have had the opportunity to fly those aircraft had NWA pilots not agreed to it in exchange for the aforementioned jobs.

So if we actually have to exercise those negotiated rights we are "screwing" the JX or Compass pilots? Too f******g bad! The windfall is they get to fly 76 seat jets NOW in exchange for protections for us later.

Personally I'd rather just have the jets and the jobs on NWA property without the baggage of Compass and XJ.

For those who take offense, it could have been presented a little more politically correct. On the other hand, the message is about as accurate and simple as it gets.

It comes down to this: Do you want to be a Saab only airline? Do you want the 76 seaters? The only catch is the Flow-thru on the 76 seaters. As we are nearing a full recall on the NWA list, it's likely no current NWA pilots will be flowing back. It is a Scope safety net for future hires in the next downturn. The whole reason for Compass was the feeder airlines posturing that they would not allow flowback. I'm guessing they'll be a bit more receptvie now that it's not likely to happen anytime in the near future. We'll see. Take Care.
Schwanker

 

[bri5150]

Pardon my ignorance on the subject. For flow backs, does mainline just bid into regional vacancies, or do they displace regional pilots so that the regional pilots are the ones that are furloughed?

 

[xjhawk]

i cannot wait for this to unwind! It might get dirty, but with all the furloughs going back to NWA I think it might be a win win situation. But as for flow up, I know being so far down the list at XJ I have a not so likely chance of a metered flow up to NWA, but I think its a great oportunity for many. I would like to have a number, if those I am flying with has one too, but thats just my opinon. No matter how harsh some have said their opinions, its their list, their NWA union, they can make their own decision.

 

[CFIfornow]

I'm all for a flow thru, back, as long as it's equal (not one side is metered and one is not.) I also agree that mainline should fight when something in their contract is not being followed. That being said it's not a matter of giving XJ this aircraft or taking them back to mainline. My understanding is that Northwest can farm out X number of 76 seat aircraft to anyone it wants (as long as they're not wholly owned.) So if a deal isn't reached the aircraft will end up at Pinnacle or Colgan with no flow back deal.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The "metering" requirement for flow-thru (up the mainline) has been source of frustration for several years, but it isn't NWA's issue.
In 1999 we had a flow-thru hammered out with both NWA and MSA managements...but the VP of Flt Ops at the time (Jeff Carlson, now VP at Spirit) insisted that he should be allowed to put move up pilots thru a period of probation at the mainline (returned to MSA if they were deemed "unacceptable"). ALPA argued that his condition was tantamount to cherrypicking only the pilots he wanted, and he admitted that was exactly his intention. (At least he was honest!) The "cherrypicking" issue was the deal-breaker!
The meterning issue was brought by MSA management who saw the number of pilots they were losing to the mainline and other major airlines, and had concerns about keeping their airline staffed. So they insisted on a Metering Matrix (my term) to determine the number of MSA pilots that could flow-up at any given time. The metering restriction was acceptable to both pilot groups and was not the deal-breaker.
I don't see metering as a deal-breaker now, either....but would prefer to see both MEC's press-to-test and declare a PID. I'd prefer to have the MSA pilots on our list. The benefits to the MSA pilots is a given, and the benefit to the NWA pilots is leverage.

 

[labbats]

Ask anyone at Eagle what the flow-through to AA has done for them. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[burg]

Being a former PNCL guy, I sat thru the joint NWA/XJ/9E alpa meetings during the last mesaba contract negotiations back in 2003 or so. All you heared was, We have to take care of the REDTAIL family. This was in every speech from each respective MEC chairman. Now look at this crap.

What does this show us?

ALPA sucks!!!!!!!!!!!

Alpa representing Mainline and there affiliated regional was bs then and it has not changed.

Finally; Does anybody remember when Mainline wanted nothing to do with RJ flying or RJ pay rates? What Happened?

 

[xjhawk]

hope your MEC has the same thoughts

The "metering" requirement for flow-thru (up the mainline) has been source of frustration for several years, but it isn't NWA's issue.
In 1999 we had a flow-thru hammered out with both NWA and MSA managements...but the VP of Flt Ops at the time (Jeff Carlson, now VP at Spirit) insisted that he should be allowed to put move up pilots thru a period of probation at the mainline (returned to MSA if they were deemed "unacceptable"). ALPA argued that his condition was tantamount to cherrypicking only the pilots he wanted, and he admitted that was exactly his intention. (At least he was honest!) The "cherrypicking" issue was the deal-breaker!
The meterning issue was brought by MSA management who saw the number of pilots they were losing to the mainline and other major airlines, and had concerns about keeping their airline staffed. So they insisted on a Metering Matrix (my term) to determine the number of MSA pilots that could flow-up at any given time. The metering restriction was acceptable to both pilot groups and was not the deal-breaker.
I don't see metering as a deal-breaker now, either....but would prefer to see both MEC's press-to-test and declare a PID. I'd prefer to have the MSA pilots on our list. The benefits to the MSA pilots is a given, and the benefit to the NWA pilots is leverage.

benefit for us all? what a thought. Maybe there might be some benefits for Management as well. Make it a win win win situation. Hey whats the deal if there are two wholly owned regionals. Is there a scope for that as well? It seems Compass has a website up and wants to hire some pilots eventually. Funny huh. how is the certificate going?

 

[naglasair1]

What are the chances of NWA liquidating Compass after it comes out of bankruptcy and giving all the ERJ's to be run by Mesaba with a flow down/up agreement (metered or not) and one seniority list?

Please forgive me if this sounds stupid.....I am still pretty new at this.

 

[Occam's Razor]

benefit for us all? what a thought. Maybe there might be some benefits for Management as well. Make it a win win win situation. Hey whats the deal if there are two wholly owned regionals. Is there a scope for that as well? It seems Compass has a website up and wants to hire some pilots eventually. Funny huh. how is the certificate going?

Merging the MSA and NWA would not be a benefit to NWA management.

The existing language in Section 1 could be applied to more than one whooly-owned, but it would require negotiations between the NWA MEC and NWA management.

I don't know how the Compass certificate is going

 

[Occam's Razor]

What are the chances of NWA liquidating Compass after it comes out of bankruptcy and giving all the ERJ's to be run by Mesaba with a flow down/up agreement (metered or not) and one seniority list?

If by "liquidating" you mean "selling" then that is the long-term plan already. Right from the start of negotiations, NWA management made it clear that they wanted to develop and supply an Airlink carrier that could be sold for a profit. That's what these guys do...they try to sell stuff they have for a profit. Sometimes it's rides on airplanes; sometimes it's vacation packages; sometimes it's Yen; sometimes it's Airlinks they've developed (eg: Pinnacle).

There are plenty of investors and management larva that are itching to buy and run an Airlink with a long-term commercial services agreement with a mainline carrier. It seems to attract a stunningly abundant supply of morally reprehensible reptiles, each thinking they will fleet-up to the Star Chamber of CEO and investor-dom and score the obscene compensation packages they used to read about in B-school.

NWA will sell Mesaba too. Someday. The big kahunas here understand the concept of "buy low - sell high" and will exploit it regardless of its toll on the employees.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

There are plenty of investors and management larva that are itching to buy and run an Airlink with a long-term commercial services agreement with a mainline carrier. It seems to attract a stunningly abundant supply of morally reprehensible reptiles, each thinking they will fleet-up to the Star Chamber of CEO and investor-dom and score the obscene compensation packages they used to read about in B-school.

This is exactly what I'm talking about why ALPA needs to limit the number of regionals available to management. This guaranteed profit scheme steals money from the mainline which would be available as a bargaining chip for the pilots. If the mainline pilots had held onto their scope, they would currently still be under the 98 contract in terms of pay. The regionals shifted productivity away from the mainline and resulted in their current paycut. If you don't believe me, notice the fact that NWA had about 400 airplanes and 5000 pilots in 97 to do 100 billion passenger miles. Today NWA has 700 airplanes and 7000 pilots to do 95 billion passenger miles. When you run the numbers, it parallels the exact amount of pay cut the pilots took here to within a few hundred dollars.

So you either have a sizable amount of good jobs, or a bunch of bad jobs. If you think NWA can't make money by operating these things at mainline, you are mistaken. Only ALPA has the ability to stop this from happening, but ALPA works for management anyway.

 

[Occam's Razor]

This is exactly what I'm talking about why ALPA needs to limit the number of regionals available to management. This guaranteed profit scheme steals money from the mainline which would be available as a bargaining chip for the pilots..

Huh? The profitability of the independent Airlind depends on the terms on the commercial agreement. NWA pays PCL $____ per hour (a confidential number) to operate as an Airlink, plus a few other indexed terms that depend on performance.

The cannibals that own/operate the Airlinks vie against each other in a pilot-hurting game of Name That Tune! . Each Airlink CEO assures the mainline they can do it for less. It's Smithian economics being played by Freddie Krueger wearing Armani.

There is no money being lost by the mainline. Ask Nike. If kids in Pakistan will make Air Jordans for one-tenth the cost to have Americans make them (add medical insurance, 401k, FMLA, weekends off, habitable workspaces, OSHA, etc) it doesn't take a genius to figure out why your shoes don't say Made in USA.

There are Airlink CEO's that are exploiting the willingness of newbies to fly for what they're payin', and the unwillingness of the mainline pilots to risk the "pull down" effect by demanding cradle-to-grave seniority lists.

If the mainline pilots had held onto their scope, they would currently still be under the 98 contract in terms of pay. The regionals shifted productivity away from the mainline and resulted in their current paycut..

If a frog had wings it wouldn't bump it's a$$ when it hopped, either!

If the Germans had developed Nukes before us we might give a sh!t about the World Cup.

Events and circumstances unfolded the way they did for rational reasons. YOU have no clue how and why NWA Scope has evolved since '98.

If you don't believe me, notice the fact that NWA had about 400 airplanes and 5000 pilots in 97 to do 100 billion passenger miles. Today NWA has 700 airplanes and 7000 pilots to do 95 billion passenger miles. When you run the numbers, it parallels the exact amount of pay cut the pilots took here to within a few hundred dollars. .

Apples and kumquats. You're assuming that assimilating all flying would have prevented the impact of the events that have occured since '97. Nice guess, Nostradamus, but it's goofy to conclude that the changes within the NWA brand you suggest would not have affected the other significant changes that took place in that time frame: CAL equity purchase, SkyTeam Alliance, aircraft purchases, new route authority, etc.

So you either have a sizable amount of good jobs, or a bunch of bad jobs. If you think NWA can't make money by operating these things at mainline, you are mistaken. Only ALPA has the ability to stop this from happening, but ALPA works for management anyway.

Your theories stretch logic. Your conclusions assume facts not in evidence. Your attack on ALPA is lame.

Hat trick!

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Usually when you outsource to china your costs go down. In the case of the regionals, the cost went up. In fact to date the regional investment is still -$400 million. That number is the losses resulted in the fact NWA pays for unfilled seats on its regionals.

However Occam, I would like you to educate me on how the regionals benefit NWA mainline pilots.

 

[NuGuy]

Events and circumstances unfolded the way they did for rational reasons. YOU have no clue how and why NWA Scope has evolved since '98.

Your theories stretch logic. Your conclusions assume facts not in evidence. Your attack on ALPA is lame.

Hat trick!

Heyas Occam,

Good luck arguing with this guy.

You would think with the bad rap pilots get these days, and the massive hits that we've taken in recent years, no one would actually be a "wannabe", but I am apparently mistaken.

Nu

 

[Occam's Razor]

Usually when you outsource to china your costs go down. In the case of the regionals, the cost went up. In fact to date the regional investment is still -$400 million. That number is the losses resulted in the fact NWA pays for unfilled seats on its regionals.

Good job reading RASM and CASM. Lousy job reading the industry and the marketing of legacy airlines. Had NWA chosen to perform all of it's Airlink flying with mainline assets, it would have been much more expensive. Even if the pay rates for the individuals operating those same jets was "industry average", the pension and other benefits would have raised unit costs.

The "regional investment" is not a fixed number. The return on that investment is in both realized revenue, and strategic value. The only reason NWA went out and bought a buttload of RJ's was to counter the poaching that was taking place inside our historic "feed rings" (the range a turboprop could fly pax to sync up with our hub-and-spoke operation). To counter the poaching, NWA defended it's turf and started poaching other feed rings with its own fleet of Airlink RJ's. The result of this over-fishing drove down RASM in several previously lucrative markets.

Enter the domestic alliance. SkyTeam, OneWorld, Star, etc. It doesn't prevent poaching, since no allilance shares revenue (that's only feasible with anti-trust immunity), but it prevents the sort of no-holds-barred overlap that was taking place when 6 mainline carriers were each sending 2 RJ's a day into such important business hubs as Cedar Rapids, Iowa!

The fixed cost system being used for our Airlinks offers the opportunity of lowest bidder competition, both at the management level, and unfortunately...at the worker bee level.

However Occam, I would like you to educate me on how the regionals benefit NWA mainline pilots.

The simple answer is "feed".

The complex answer is "by doing something the mainline pilots don't want to do"...which is shorthand for fly those aircraft for those rates.

As long as there was a clear demarckation point in the type of flying, pilots didn't ask your question. Now that the line is somewhat blurry, the transition point is tough to define even if the relationship is still clearly evident.

So the complex benefit is derived from the absence of the "pull-down" effect by separating the flying.

At NWA, I think there is benefit to eliminating the line to gain leverage against our management. I think it would come at a cost, but consider it worth the risk.