The problem with givebacks specifically to save pensions is what happens when you negotiate give backs and the company still goes into bankruptcy and the 1st think that goes is the pensions ?, with this management group its possible that it is part of the plan.I also agree that LCC's are not the problem because it is an entirely different product, they were supposed to serve that segment of the traveling public that just wanted to get from A to B cheaply without all of the so called extras on fullservice airlines. The problem is that we found out that most people really just wanted a cheap ticket and not a blanket, magazine and a bad meal. Couple that with the business traveler using the fax machine, e-mail, conference calls and microsoft net meeting along with FedEx overnight shipping to do business and make his kids T-ball game because he didn't have to get on an airplane and get raped at the ticket counter because it was a last minute trip and this is what we get. Also dont forget the true 1st class passengers are now fractional owners.