NWA/DAL Pilots reach agrement on SLI...

[PuffDriver]

I'm not taking any sides on this whole NWA/DAL debate, but the above quote is incorrect. Negotiating notes are commonly used to demonstrate original intent to the arbitrator during grievance proceedings. If the written CBA language isn't clear enough, then the arbitrator looks at negotiating notes. If those aren't clear enough, then he looks at past practice. And so on, and so on.

Hold on, now. I agree with that one. The question came as to whether or not our informal SLI talks can come back in actual arbitration of an SLI. The answer is a resounding no. Delta can absolutely change our position. Whether or not they would is up for more debate. It was very fair, and the numbers back it up. Anything less, and the numbers point to a Delta loss at a NWA pilot's gain. That's a no-no in ALPA merger policy. We aren't talking about the grievance process here. None of what we have done so far is considered a legal proceeding.

 

[PCL_128]

Hold on, now. I agree with that one. The question came as to whether or not our informal SLI talks can come back in actual arbitration of an SLI. The answer is a resounding no. Delta can absolutely change our position. Whether or not they would is up for more debate. It was very fair, and the numbers back it up. Anything less, and the numbers point to a Delta loss at a NWA pilot's gain. That's a no-no in ALPA merger policy. We aren't talking about the grievance process here. None of what we have done so far is considered a legal proceeding.

I think the problem is that you and Nu were talking about different things. He was referring to their scope language being violated, which would be handled under the grievance process, but you're talking about SLI arbitration. You're correct that SLI arguments can certainly change by the time you get to arbitration. As to the fairness of either side's proposals, like I said, I'm staying out of that one.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The RJDC litigants were first party litigants on a DFR claim against their Rep. (ALPA) It is a different matter.

Third parties like GE, or Bombardier, had standing but no reason to pursue the matter since Delta had signed a $10,000,000,000.00 deal (yes, ten billion sports fans) for almost 500 RJ's which they in fact did end up buying (wonder how they knew scope would be enlarged to allow that to happen in 1999? Lucky guess? :erm: ) Bombardier did not want to rock that gravy train since they sold CRJ200's for more than Boeing rolled a few 717's off the line for.

PCL - If no one challenges a contract, it remains valid. No one has made a run on one of ALPA's five to ten page scope sections. But, you would be interested to know the DMEC filed a grievance over Comair performing Shuttle flying and either lost or withdrew it. Delta (as is often the case) wanted to preserve relations with their pilots and temporarilly ceased CMR's Shuttle ops. Today, Comair operates Shuttle.

Of course the attorney that wrote it is going to tell you he thinks it is good. Ask me how I think I did on my last check ride....

...and I'm not saying someone is going to make that run now, but it is a risk when you complicate scope and step way outside of labor protection provisions to try to control flying performed by another entity.

There are a host of reasons why scope should be all "Delta" flying performed by "Delta" pilots. This is yet another reason.

~~~^~~~

 

[PuffDriver]

Heyas Fins,

As part of our section one, we have "Notice to Transaction Successor" clauses.

Basically, it compells the company to notify and require, as part of the legal framework of any transaction (complete OR partial), the recognition and compliance with Section 1.

This isn't a matter of our contract binding on a third, unrelated, party, to which I happen to agree with you.

Rather, this langauge REQUIRES, as part of any transaction, that the successor recognizes and complies with section 1.

Simply put, either they become a party to the contract, or no transaction can be made.

Of course, DAL ALPA is free to argue in court that they are not party to this, BUT, in doing so, would open the floodgates for every RJDC type outfit to claim that they are not party to DAL scope, either.

And that, as you pointed out, is very dangerous ground to tread.

Nu

Fortunately, that is not the way this is headed. Keep asking them, though, and they will get it sooner or later.

 

[PuffDriver]

I think the problem is that you and Nu were talking about different things. He was referring to their scope language being violated, which would be handled under the grievance process, but you're talking about SLI arbitration. You're correct that SLI arguments can certainly change by the time you get to arbitration. As to the fairness of either side's proposals, like I said, I'm staying out of that one.

Yep, overlooked that. Too much fluffing I guess. Regardless, it will be done IOW both PWAs--if it becomes necessary.

 

[generaltso]

So the issue becomes… what planes do you park?

Good question, but 35 RJ's is a great start!

 

[MJ42]

Good question, but 35 RJ's is a great start!

Your next sweet tea is on me! Better yet...next beer!:beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

bottom line here guys is that we are both ALPA, we both are fighting for the same cause, to get the best contract and most pay, right? In order to effectively do that we need to be getting along and stop the name calling BS. We should be fighting to keep everyone on property both sides, fighting for our stake in the new company, and fighting for pay raises. This will make the largest airline in the world with pretty much the largest pilot group. That's only worth something if we stand together, otherwise its not worth much. Mgmt would love for us to be fighting each other because if we fight each other we cant fight them. However this goes down, eventually we will all be part of the same company working towards the same goals.:beer:

 

[johnsonrod]

bottom line here guys is that we aer both ALPA, we both are fighting for the same cause, to get the best contract and most pay, right? In order to effectively do that we need to be getting along and stop the name calling BS. We should be fighting to keep everyone on property both sides, fighting for our stake in the new company, and fighting for pay raises. This will make the largest airline in the world with pretty much the largest pilot group. That's only worth something if we stand together, otherwise its not worth much. Mgmt would love for us to be fighting each other because if we fight each other we cant fight them. However this goes down, eventually we will all be part of the same company working towards the same goals.:beer:

Amen brother...

 

[PuffDriver]

bottom line here guys is that we aer both ALPA, we both are fighting for the same cause, to get the best contract and most pay, right? In order to effectively do that we need to be getting along and stop the name calling BS. We should be fighting to keep everyone on property both sides, fighting for our stake in the new company, and fighting for pay raises. This will make the largest airline in the world with pretty much the largest pilot group. That's only worth something if we stand together, otherwise its not worth much. Mgmt would love for us to be fighting each other because if we fight each other we cant fight them. However this goes down, eventually we will all be part of the same company working towards the same goals.:beer:

Unquestionably correct. Nobody is disputing those things. Unfortunately, it IS going to take an internal battle to make one side realize that they are not going to be all gain in this merger. There will have to be some sacrifice on their part as well. That means that they do not get the list purely as they wish. As soon as they figure it out, all will be well. In the meantime, the NWA loudmouths on here will continue to have their hat handed to them until they finally not pass on the opportunity to find fault with their MEC, or keep quiet whichever comes first.

 

[nwaredtail]

There will have to be some sacrifice on their part as well. That means that they do not get the list purely as they wish. As soon as they figure it out, all will be well.

I think having to wear that outdated, u-boat commander uniform should be enough.

 

[Superpilot92]

Unquestionably correct. Nobody is disputing those things. Unfortunately, it IS going to take an internal battle to make one side realize that they are not going to be all gain in this merger. There will have to be some sacrifice on their part as well. That means that they do not get the list purely as they wish. As soon as they figure it out, all will be well. In the meantime, the NWA loudmouths on here will continue to have their hat handed to them until they finally not pass on the opportunity to find fault with their MEC, or keep quiet whichever comes first.

Maybe maybe not. Each side has its own stories and rumors. I am a pretty reasonable person and typically look at all information prior to making my judgment, however in this case it is not possible to gather enough to judge. You guys have a completely opposite view and are either being told the truth or someones interpretation of the truth. Same goes for us at NWA. I dont know. All i know is that there is the DAL side, the NWA side, then there is the "deal" It appears that NONE of us really know the real "deal" We just got a letter today from the MEC saying things are being ironed out and that we shouldn't get to worked up about the rumors, media "experts" i think was the term used. Both DAL and NWA have great experienced ALPA pilots working on behalf of all of us. Is it going to be fair to everyone? No. But again when its all said and done we are all still going to be alpa and on the same team. If this happens I look forward to flying with any DAL pilot and I hope the same mentality is shared by all. Cheers! :beer:

I know some of you might get misty eyed with that stuff so i apologize in advanced especially to 737 Pylt, he is such a softy when it comes to stuff like that.

 

[FBN0223]

I think having to wear that outdated, u-boat commander uniform should be enough.

I agree and it will be hats optional for those based north, right?

 

[clippyrip]

I think having to wear that outdated, u-boat commander uniform should be enough.

Para scope up....

 

[PuffDriver]

Maybe maybe not. Each side has its own stories and rumors. I am a pretty reasonable person and typically look at all information prior to making my judgment, however in this case it is not possible to gather enough to judge. You guys have a completely opposite view and are either being told the truth or someones interpretation of the truth. Same goes for us at NWA. I dont know. All i know is that there is the DAL side, the NWA side, then there is the "deal" It appears that NONE of us really know the real "deal" We just got a letter today from the MEC saying things are being ironed out and that we shouldn't get to worked up about the rumors, media "experts" i think was the term used. Both DAL and NWA have great experienced ALPA pilots working on behalf of all of us. Is it going to be fair to everyone? No. But again when its all said and done we are all still going to be alpa and on the same team. If this happens I look forward to flying with any DAL pilot and I hope the same mentality is shared by all. Cheers! :beer:

I know some of you might get misty eyed with that stuff so i apologize in advanced especially to 737 Pylt, he is such a softy when it comes to stuff like that.

When you are right, you are right. I'm out, and my best to you, sir.