NW Judge views on scope

[General Lee]

Gropper appears to have involved himself in some of the contract's finer points, such as what size jets Northwest could fly using lower-paid pilots at a subsidiary, according to Dollaway's comments on the video.
That fight over the contract's "scope" was one of the key battles between pilots, who want to keep as much flying for themselves as possible, and the airline, which wanted to form a subsidiary for all jets under 100 seats.
"The judge's opinions on scope were quite blunt," Dollaway said. "He saw no interest in scope, nor benefit to the corporation. He understood that the corporation might be willing to enter into scope provisions to get a consensual agreement, but as far as he was concerned they were unnecessary and restrictive, and that shut the company's discussions of scope down with us for about five days.
"So they were pretty angry, they felt like they'd already overpaid before he uttered his sayings in chamber. In any case, we did get a great scope clause."
Pilots ended up agreeing that Northwest could form a subsidiary, but only for jets with 51 to 76 seats.



I will vote NO on any TA that allows larger RJs at DCI or Scope erosion.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[uberbored]

yawn.

 

[General Lee]

yawn.

You don't think our Dalpa guys are jumping all over that? I bet they are. Was that a yawn or a burp? Probably a fart in your case. Great second post Leo Mullin.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[doh]

No, ALPA won't see the forest. But the General and his cronies could vote the thing down until it says "all flying must be done by Delta pilots..." If they grow a pair that is... we shall see.

 

[~~~^~~~]

quote]The Delta boys sold scope, killed onelist and they still don't want military pilots to have to fly RJ's. ALPA leadership wants a group of preferred pilots and a group of non preferred pilots. Any attempts to raise the entire profession will be killed by the preferred pilots who do not want their percieved status reduced.

The Northwest guys are claiming Compass is a scope win. However, note that the NW TA has the RJ's at yet another alter ego for sub-standard pay & work rules. AND there are provisions that Compass can be sold.

Now consider for a minute the situation with Mid Atlantic, Republic, Chautauqua. When US Air and America West merge, do you think the America West pilots are going to stand for a bunch of senior (by US Air DOH) RJ guys from Chautauqua / Mid Atlantic to bid over into their A320 and 757 seats? There is already talk that these guys may not be a part of the merger and there were some number (77 I think) that were left at the 170 subsidiary and who were not able to make the cut to Mid Atlantic.

Who expects more consolidation in the industry? Would you want to be a NorthWest pilot who "won" a position at a alter ego subsidiary who will probably get spun off for exit financing?

ALPA is just screwing itself (and even the mainline interests that it claims to have as priority #1) with all this alter ego crap. Why folks like General can't figure out that this is the wrong way to go is beyond me.

Is being better than someone else that important? Am I more important than a US Air E170 pilot, or a Compass pilot because I earn more money?

Why can't ALPA fight alter ego instead of facilitating replacement flying?

 

[744]

"...one f8cking list. If the people incharge 15 to 20 years ago understood this we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are today.

Someone did. "If there is a kite with the Pan Am ball on it, there will be a Pan Am pilot at the end of the string". So spoke, more or less, the Pan Am MEC Chairman upon Pan Am's purchase of Ransome.

Unfortunately the rest of the mainline ALPA pilot groups were more concerned about keeping the "commuter pilots" off their seniority lists—and lord forbid that their buddies who just got on should start in anything smaller than a DC-9.

So here we are. As foreseen by at least a few people 20 years ago.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

I agree. This problem was created long time ago, when all this flying was done by Prop jobs, and the mainline drivers saw it as "beneath them" only after the monster they created has escaped, is when they are trying to figure out how to contain it.

The only solution is a blunt one: ONE COMPANY, ONE LIST, ONE PILOT GROUP

Until the boys at ALPA don't grow a pair and take this stance, and I'm not talking about separate MEC's doing their thing out there. But all of a sudden ALPA national declaring that ONE MEC WILL REPRESENT ALL PILOTS UNDER A BRAND.

The entry level A/C at American = F/O on the SAAB
The entry level A/C at NWA = F/O on the SAAB
The entry level A/C at Continental = F/O on the 1900

And so forth. This is the only way to stop the slaughter

 

[arthompson]

The entry level aircraft at CO use to be the 1900, then XJT retired the 1900's and got spun off as a seperate company. The negotiations killed flow thru and even they became victims of this mess.

 

[LearLove]

Someone did. "If there is a kite with the Pan Am ball on it, there will be a Pan Am pilot at the end of the string". So spoke, more or less, the Pan Am MEC Chairman upon Pan Am's purchase of Ransome.

Unfortunately the rest of the mainline ALPA pilot groups were more concerned about keeping the "commuter pilots" off their seniority lists—and lord forbid that their buddies who just got on should start in anything smaller than a DC-9.

So here we are. As foreseen by at least a few people 20 years ago.

When JD finally gave in and sold Ransome to Pan Am part of the deal (his doing) was that all his pilots got positions at Pan Am, DOH if I'm not mistaken. I know a guy who had 15+ years at Ransome and went from the left seat on the Dash7 to the right seat on the 727.

 

[Alchemy]

The entry level aircraft at CO use to be the 1900, then XJT retired the 1900's and got spun off as a seperate company. The negotiations killed flow thru and even they became victims of this mess.

Amen brother. As we all wade through this giant sewer we call the airline industry. I love it so much I hate it.

 

[atlcrashpad]

It don't matter. Different Judge, different ruling. It happens everyday. Judges are human and their feelings and emotions do get involved in their decisions. That's why if you no likey, you appeal. Either way the airline industry is going down the tubes and we are cutting each others throat as it does. Management is laughing all the way to the bank.


the bank reference is to their salaries, not the airlines profits

 

[Bringupthebird]

I agree. This problem was created long time ago, when all this flying was done by Prop jobs, and the mainline drivers saw it as "beneath them" only after the monster they created has escaped, is when they are trying to figure out how to contain it.

This is a gross oversimplification. Who owned the Allegheny Commuter Airlines in the days when they flew Beech 99's and Twin Otters? Not USAir. Who owned the American Eagles: Command, Simmons, Wings West. Not American. In fact aside from Ransome (with PA and later TW) there weren't any wholly-owned commuters. It would have made no sense to put a contractor on their seniority list. It wasn't until many of those airlines had matured that they were purchased by mainlines and then integration became a sticking point because the commuter guys had such longevity.

The big mistake (IMHO) was when ALPA agreed to represent regional pilots. They became double agents who can't offer true leadership and representation to either side. Regional pilots need their own RALPA that can fight for them and ALPA needs to break the news to Duane Woerth's limo driver that he's going to have to agree to some concessions.

 

[Bringupthebird]

double post

 

[Bringupthebird]

triple post. Anyone for a home run?

 

[744]

This is a gross oversimplification. Who owned the Allegheny Commuter Airlines in the days when they flew Beech 99's and Twin Otters? Not USAir.

Actually, USAir did. Pennsylvania Airlines, which is 1/2 of what became "Allegheny" and is now 1/3 of "Piedmont", was a BE-99, DHC-6 and SD3 operator when USAir bought it outright in 1985. Suburban, which followed shortly afterward, was an SD3 operation. Ditto with Piedmont/Henson. All of these predated the Pan Am/Ransome deal.

Nor was it any secret at the time of these acquisitions that both USAir and Piedmont intended to grow them significantly.

 

[homerjdispatch]

General banned but not learlove?

"I just got banned for a week for profanity.

So, I saw the Gen was banned for using the s word.....but the above rant gets a free ride? Kinda confused here? I am.