NTSB Report - Frightening!

[jetbluedog]

You guys must read this NTSB report on that SR22 that crashed a couple weeks ago in FL. Poor guy, sent chills up my spine.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050131X00119&key=1

I hope the CIRRUS isn't the next "Docter Killer" like the Bonanza was know for throughout the 60's, 70's and 80's.

It's too bad he didn't get that CHUTE pulled in time. This is what Cirrus was hoping to prevent when the put the chute in these planes......

Also, someone told me about another Cirrus fatal crash in Oregon in the past week or two?? Anyone know the details on this one?

-JBDOG

 

[Goose Egg]

Wasn't that just the preliminary report? Probable cause has yet to be determined. For all we know, that guy could have killed himself in any airplane. Reserve all castigation or man or machine until after the final report has been published.

And no matter what happened, I tend to think that low IFR in a single-engine piston, PFD or no, is a bad idea. I guess this guy wasn't technically in LIFR, but he was darn close.

-Goose

 

[urflyingme?!]

One quick thing that scares me is his seeming familiarity of the aircraft. I mean he did partial panel in it a few weeks prior and did othe IFR flights in it!
scary...

 

[apcooper]

Sounds to me a classic spatial disorientation accident. Its I big shame that so many pilots kill themselves this way each year! We also know that insturment rated pilots aren't immune from JFK Jr style accidents either, even in the latest, most sophisticated aircraft. Glad he didn't land on a mall or highway or something like that.

 

[Flying Illini]

what a terrible feeling...he knew he was losing it. I bet he never prayed to break out harder in his life. Thoughts and prayers to his family.

 

[88_MALIBU]

Very sad. I wonder why he was trying to hand fly it... I would think with all those avionics it would be easier to let the heading bug and AP do the work while in IMC. Does anyone know if the AP can run off the backup Attitude Indicator? Prayers for the family and hopefully we can learn something when the final ruling comes out.

 

[eggman76]

Fourth PFD since new??

Did you notice that the a/c was on it's fourth PFD since it was new in June '04?

Would you blast off into a 600 overcast, single pilot, busy airspace, with an aircraft you knew had a potential primary display problem?

 

[jetbluedog]

Good Point Eggman

Eggman,

Good point. I was going to raise the same questions. Does anyone have any info behind the "reliability" behind these new PFD's vs. the "old gauges"?? I know he had back-up old gauges but I think I still prefer flying around with the 6 conventional dials in front of me: Airspeed, Attitude, Altimeter, Turn Cord, DG, and VSI.

Are these PFD's being placed in Cessna's and Cirruses have the same reliability as our 'glass' cockpits at the airliners? Anyone research this? I guess my main concern would be "overheating" of these elements packed into a cramped dashboard of wires and other avionics. How do they get adequate airflow? My PC has a fan onboard.....do any of these fancy PFD's have a blower fan to manage temperature?

I have a lot of questions as I am poised to make a major personal aircraft purchase in the near future.

JBDOG

 

[Inconceivable]

JBDog--

They have been rushed to market so quicklyone wonders how they could be tested

 

[VampyreGTX]

Also, looks like he pulled the chute, and it was either too late, or it malfunctioned.

Exerpt from NTSB report:

"The CAPS parachute bag extended, by attached risers, about 40 feet from the wreckage, and came to rest in front of a fence. The parachute was still in the parachute bag. The CAPS cover was located near the airplane, and exhibited a circular impact mark on the inside, consistent with rocket activation. The squib had also been fired. The rocket motor and lanyard were found near the parachute bag.

The CAPS T-handle safety pin was found in the wreckage, away from the T-handle, with its red safety flag wrapped around it. The T-handle was found pulled out of its housing by about 2 1/2 inches; however, it could not be determined if the pilot had pulled it, or if it had been displaced by impact forces."

 

[Vik]

Very scary especially with the amount of experience he had in type.

 

[Corona]

You guys must read this NTSB report on that SR22 that crashed a couple weeks ago in FL. Poor guy, sent chills up my spine.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050131X00119&key=1

I hope the CIRRUS isn't the next "Docter Killer" like the Bonanza was know for throughout the 60's, 70's and 80's.

It's too bad he didn't get that CHUTE pulled in time. This is what Cirrus was hoping to prevent when the put the chute in these planes......

Also, someone told me about another Cirrus fatal crash in Oregon in the past week or two?? Anyone know the details on this one?

-JBDOG

The Oregon crash was in what's called the Columbia Gorge, where the Columbia River goes through the Cascade mountains. It is known for(and I have experienced) incredibly nasty wx of all types; ice, windshear, mtn wave etc. What was shown on the news looked like it might have been VFR into IMC or CFIT, as there are no IAPs into the airports in the Gorge. The airplane was in several pieces.

I believe the EFIS displays and related avionics are certified to a lower standard than those in Pt 25 Acft; there have been at least a couple articles over the years alluding to that. They use quite a different system for their artificial horizon: There ain't no $200K ring laser gyros there. However, they are certified, and therefore must go through at least Pt 23 certification.

I wouldn't begin to speculate whether it was the pilot or the equipment, though I have not been a big fan of the CAPS system since it was first proposed. I feel -and I may be entirely wrong- that a qualified pilot needs to be at the controls of an aircraft at all times, and that the instances where the chute was truly needed were few and far between, if ever.

I would not be too quick to blame Cirrus for the accidents. They are churning out an incredible number of airplanes from the factory, and obviously most are flying safely. I hope they get the common cause in these accidents soon before an apparently otherwise good airframe gets the "doctor killer" moniker.

C

 

[DiverDriver]

Also, looks like he pulled the chute, and it was either too late, or it malfunctioned.

Read it again.

Exerpt from NTSB report:

"The CAPS parachute bag extended, by attached risers, about 40 feet from the wreckage, and came to rest in front of a fence. The parachute was still in the parachute bag. The CAPS cover was located near the airplane, and exhibited a circular impact mark on the inside, consistent with rocket activation. The squib had also been fired. The rocket motor and lanyard were found near the parachute bag.

The CAPS T-handle safety pin was found in the wreckage, away from the T-handle, with its red safety flag wrapped around it. The T-handle was found pulled out of its housing by about 2 1/2 inches; however, it could not be determined if the pilot had pulled it, or if it had been displaced by impact forces."

Having dealt with skydiving incidents I know that it's a very real possibility that the impact caused the launch/partial deployment. With some study and recreation they should be able to figure out if it was manually deployed or impact activated. Your first statement seems to make a conclusion where you really can't yet.

 

[EDUC8-or]

Eggman,

Good point. I was going to raise the same questions. Does anyone have any info behind the "reliability" behind these new PFD's vs. the "old gauges"?? I know he had back-up old gauges but I think I still prefer flying around with the 6 conventional dials in front of me: Airspeed, Attitude, Altimeter, Turn Cord, DG, and VSI.

Are these PFD's being placed in Cessna's and Cirruses have the same reliability as our 'glass' cockpits at the airliners? Anyone research this? I guess my main concern would be "overheating" of these elements packed into a cramped dashboard of wires and other avionics. How do they get adequate airflow? My PC has a fan onboard.....do any of these fancy PFD's have a blower fan to manage temperature?

I have a lot of questions as I am poised to make a major personal aircraft purchase in the near future.

JBDOG

Can't tell you about Cirrus, but I've flown a C-182 with the Garmin G1000 all glass system. There are two cooling fans, one up front behind the avionics and one near the back of the baggage compartment. During the preflight you activate one of two avionics switches at a time and listen for the fans. If either of them is not operating it is a no go item.

 

[Kingairrick]

I'm uncomfortable discussing this in a forum where someone has died, but it seems applicable (possibly.)

I was talking to a flight instructor the other day about the pilots who are obtaining their instrument rating based on EFIS equipment only. This pilot appears to be one of those, as most of his time is in the Cirrus.
We were wondering how we felt about the competency of these pilots to fly the old stuff? I know I wouldn't go fly a non-efis airplane IMC alone right now, and my EFIS isn't nearly as nice as the one in the Cirrus.
My opinion is that it is a lot harder to fly IMC on steam gauges. If the PFD failed, to me, it would certainly explain his difficulty controlling the aircraft.

As always, just my .02

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Rick,

I have wondered that also. Glass is great, but it is not the same as steam gauges. Anybody that has flown a glass cockpit a while and then went back to steam gauges knows how much of a glass cripple that you become. If a pilot only learned a glass stare and never learned a scan, trying to figure it out in IMC on a peanut gyro is not the place learn.

Dunno what happened in this case, but the new generation of GA glass presents potential problems that low timers have never really been exposed to before.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Sounds like the problem is with the Avidyne FlightMax Entrega-Series Primary Flight Display, not the airplane itself. As noted... Fourth screen since new? In under two years??

Unfortunately, if this is the only avionics suite available in the Cirrus (which I am not sufficiently motivated to investigate), it BECOMES a problem with the airplane.

I can't help but think that an airplane parked in FL or TX or somewhere similar, especially with all that glass (as in windows), would cook them thar fancy avionics on its' down time.

 

[Snakum]

Would you blast off into a 600 overcast, single pilot, busy airspace, with an aircraft you knew had a potential primary display problem?

Not nowadays, I wouldn't. I have scared myself a couple times in lesser circumstances, and I like to think I've learned a lesson or two in the process. But if I was the same young(ish), bold pilot I was at one time ... yeah ... I'd probably blast off.

I feel for this guy in his last few minutes. That had to be a horrible emotional state ... knowing you're in over your head and that the chances are very good you're gonna make a hole if something doesn't change.

A question for you pros ...

Assume for a minute that you were in his shoes, and thinking thru the radar returns and having a general idea of what it must have been like in the cockpit that night ... at what point would you have pulled the chute?


Minh

 

[inline]

"The certificated commercial pilot...."

This always gets me. This guy has a commercial pilots certificate. He doesn't flying for a living, he's a private pilot.

 

[pireps]

I can see there being a reluctance to pull the shute, especially if he's the owner and thinking of the guaranteed wreckage that comes with pulling it. For some reason as pilots, I think too often we are worried about equipment damage first and then personal damage, as weird as that sounds. He may have not considered his situation "bad enough" to pull it, perhaps thinking it was to be used only for "catastrophic" situations such as spins or structural damage. Another thing to consider: maybe his (albeit limited) experience with partial panel gave him a false sense of security, thinking he would be able to "get his act together", as he said on the radio.

Of course this is just pure speculation and I am in no way passing personal judgment. May he rest in peace.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

While flying down in FLL before hoping into the regional, I flew in and out of FLL and FXe quite a bit. FXE doesw a lot of work on Siruses, believe it is Banyan Maint. at FXE. Has an approved dealership or maint base whatever.......

On a personal note, I hate flying in and out of FXE because of the INEXPERIENCE pilots who do not know what they are doing and do not know how to talk on the radio. It is scary down in s. florida be careful flying in and out of there.

 

[jetbluedog]

Insurance Issues

Ok. So what if people start "pulling chutes" like crazy in these aircraft equipped with CAPS. Cirrus says survival is likely, but you can expect a complete hull loss of the aircraft. The impact destroys the aircraft beyond repair when the chute is used.

I guess the big questions is: What will happen to insurance rates???

I'm confused. Will insurance rates go down because of the chute preventing DEATHS? Or, will insurance rates go up because of more frequent hull-losses?? ($300,000 for an SR22)

I am in the market for one of these Cirruses.......and that questions has me somewhat worried.

Please Help. ???

 

[msuspartans24]

"The certificated commercial pilot...."

This always gets me. This guy has a commercial pilots certificate. He doesn't flying for a living, he's a private pilot.

Last I checked if you have a commercial cert. that makes you a commercial rated pilot. I didn't see anywhere in the regs where it says you have to "fly for a living".

Nice ego!

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Ok. So what if people start "pulling chutes" like crazy in these aircraft equipped with CAPS. Cirrus says survival is likely, but you can expect a complete hull loss of the aircraft. The impact destroys the aircraft beyond repair when the chute is used.

Actually there have been a few deployments where the airframe was repaired. Damage outside of the deployment was minimal. The impact is supposed to be the equivalent of being dropped straight down from a height of 13 feet, rate not to exceed 1700 fpm. Cirrus recommends that the chute not be pulled below a height of 900 AGL. Deployment and stabilization takes a little time. Haven't heard of anyone that died who pulled the chute at any reasonable altitude.

Mr. I.

 

[Snakum]

I guess the big questions is: What will happen to insurance rates???

An even bigger question: what will happen to the people standing where the plane is coming down?



Minh