NTSB recommends immediate changes to Cessna 208B usage

[EagleRJ]

600 HP sounds kind of low for a Caravan! How many variants are there?

FN FAL- Have you ever seen/flown a 'van with the Soloy Dual-Pac (two PT-6s driving a common propeller)? 1300 SHP should be enough to drag it up through the ice without breaking a sweat!

 

[Kingairrick]

FN FAL,
I'm puttin' it together here. Do you lower the max takeoff weight in the Caravan in icing conditions? In the King Air, we just have to stay above the minimum icing airspeed (140KIAS) so ice doesn't form on the bottom of the wing behind the boots. That's what I thought you were implying in your previous post.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

I have never flown the van either but I knew a lot of guys in alaska who flew it. They always told me it was not the wing but the tail (horizontal stab) that was the problem. It was too small and because of the airflow around the plane when below min ice penetration speed was VERY suseptable to ice and would cause a tail stall. They said the caravans with the belly pod were more so because they only flew maybe 10 knots over ice penetration speed anyway. (The belly pod even has a deice boot on it)


The reason I am writing is the name of one of the pilots sounds familiar. Was this Fred Villanova who use to fly the 99 at Ameriflight in SLC?

 

[Checks]

You have to fly the caravan like it isnt certified for icing. At the first sign off ice start getting out of the icing conditions. As a general rule I always climb...you can always come back down and the increased speed in the descent will blow off more ice. If you jerk your chicken while picking up ice, that ice will bite you in the rear one day.

 

[Duderino]

So you're saying that normal cruise is lower than min icing airspeed? Wow, that sucks. I've always wanted to fly one. I guess it's a good thing I live in Florida.

Hey Eric, sounds like you are working at a company that has one.

 

[ultrarunner]

After having 2 or 3 of them almost crash in icing conditions they had Cessna come out and school us one weekend

that should tell you something right there.

 

[Kingairrick]

Hey Eric, sounds like you are working at a company that has one.

Not Eric. Smallest AC we have is my King Air 300.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

Do you lower the max takeoff weight in the Caravan in icing conditions?

Dusting off my Caravan knowledge I believe your max takeoff was reduced from 9,062 to 8,750 lbs (this is the APE kit) if icing conditions were present.

 

[B6Busdriver]

I flew the Caravan for one year in the great lakes area. As our director of operations said you had better treat ice on the Caravan like smoke in the cockpit.
It's a fine machine BUT it does suck in the ice. As I recall the airplane had a minimum speed of 105 kts in icing conditions. Any slower and there were no guarantees the tail won't stall. With company power setings you cruised about 160-165 kts. On one occasion I could only maintain 115-120kts with full power in level flight. I had climbed in search of a reported break between layers that was never found. When I couldn't find the break I had to descend. In the descent I tried to pick up speed before hitting the boots with about 10 degrees pitch down and cruise power. All I could get before leveling off was about 150 kts. When I leveled off I cruised at about 135kts with a max torque setting. Pretty scarey stuff.
One of the guys who had a lot of time in the airplane hit freezing rain on the approach and had full power by the time he touched down. There are way too many stories like this. The airplane was fun to fly but I sure don't miss it.

 

[Jmmccutc]

just my opinion, not trying to get flamed here...

i know that several people mentioned that they have flown the VAN in the great lakes area, and i also know that there is a 135 opperation very near my location that will allow a person with a commercial certificate to fork over some buckage and ride in the right seat...

what i'm trying to ask i gues is do ya'll believe that the experience level of the guy "paying to play" has anything to do with the the fact that they are crashing?

just wondering...

 

[bustedstuff]

The reason I am writing is the name of one of the pilots sounds familiar. Was this Fred Villanova who use to fly the 99 at Ameriflight in SLC?

Yeah, it was that Fred. He had been with Salmon for about 2 months. Very sad.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Of course experience matters. The airplane was great fun but it was the absolute worst in ice that I have flown. As for paying to play, I don't know about that they paid me.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Yeah, it was that Fred. He had been with Salmon for about 2 months. Very sad.

I hate to hear it. He was really a great guy. Very friendly and very helpful when I was a new guy. He had a ton of experience in the be-99. They have a lot more power and much more solid in ice.

Any Idea why he went to Salmon?

 

[FN FAL]

FN FAL,
I'm puttin' it together here. Do you lower the max takeoff weight in the Caravan in icing conditions? In the King Air, we just have to stay above the minimum icing airspeed (140KIAS) so ice doesn't form on the bottom of the wing behind the boots. That's what I thought you were implying in your previous post.

Yes, we do lower the weight. 600 HP caravans are now lowered to 7600 mtow, they were using 7800 lbs before. The 675 HP is lowered to 8000 mtow.

Sorry, I was confused with your post...not digging on you.

Today was weird deal with ice. I descended during vectors for an approach, and I bet within two minutes I got prop vibration (which is common in the Van). The plane was loading up quickly with some clear ice, but I was able to clear the boots pretty good. I never lost much airspeed during the approach, and I even hit a patch of freezing drizzle that was so loud, I thought my rear door had popped open. That freezing drizzle patch lasted 15 seconds. When I looked out the window as that was happening, I thought to myself, "Great, now I'm getting ICE on my ICE!"

Anyway, I kept the airspeed up during the approach and to be honest it wasn't continious, it came on during descent through icing layers. Meaning, I was IMC the whole time, but it was worst in different parts of the descent. The approach was a VOR and I broke out before I descended for the MDA. So I felt pretty confident throughout the approach, that I wasn't going to get hosed.

In sumation...that icing situation really never dropped my speed down, but I had good accretion on the boots and forward exposed surfaces. The boots cleaned up pretty good, even though I had to cycle the prop a few times to settle things down.

After the plane was deiced, I left and flew to another airport in the area after having lunch with some other Caravan pilots from the UPS contractor. I got barely any ICE during that .7 flight, as lower altitude conditions changed in that area by then. When I got my 50 lbs of freight loaded, I departed and climbed to 12,000 for the 1 hour trip home and got no ice in the climb worth reporting and was on top with sun on my face once again.

Later, I was being vectored for a localizer approach at home base, a Class charley airport. They had to put me down in IMC over Lake Michigan. The controller told me he was doing his best to minimize the lenght of time I would be over the lake.

This situation was hairy...the plane actually was slowing down in a descent. I rode the vectors out, because they were working me in...not spinning me in circles and because the bases were around 1,500...plus the temps were a positive degree "C" to three on the final and vis was good below the bases. But this stuff over the lake was bad.

There were regional pilots getting speed restrictions (not because of me...but before I got in line) and the regional guys were telling the controller they had to maintain 190 in the icing and the controller kept telling them "maintain 170, you won't be in it long!" The captain of the regional (I'm assuming it was a jet, I had my own problems so I din't memorize everybody elses problems or who they flew for!) kind of did one of those guy hisses at the controller when he replied to the speed restriction. So evidently, these guys were having problems with the over the lake approach as well.

In both cases, I had to cycle boots frequently and cycle the props. One case resulted in the airplane slowing, even during a descent and one case surprisingly didn't cause me to slow down...even though I hit a momentary patch of moderate freezing drizzle.

Other problematical issues that occured today, was the fact that the first destination was bobbing between a 1/2 and 1/4 and tops were at 11,000. The wind was a quartering headwind for the ILS, but county said the wind was blowing their sand off the runway. MU was 18, 18, 18...and every time they checked it, it got worse...so they notamed the runway as nil. That was great news...it took the decision to land way out of my hands, there wasn't going to be a landing. I asked for a turn to the next airport and the operations players were going to have to make a decision of what to do about that 1,300 lbs of freight.

Even if the runway wasn't notamed "nil", it didn't take me long to figure out that I wasn't going to play "catch the vis on the upside" and slam dunk it in...two many bad variables. Like having to go missed with a load of ice or being forced/cornered into landing on a slick runway with a quartering head wind of 25 knots gusting to 30 something, with a load of ice. So I diverted and they trucked boxes...so did the UPS contractor that was headed the same place I was going. They weren't playing that game in a Caravan either...nice guys, went to lunch with them and had a great time.

So yes, I see where YOU have the option of "not slowing down" in icing in a more powerful aircraft...we don't. In fact, we're lucky if we can indicate 140 knots in level flight. So we take weight off and adjust. It's the only variable we have...other than staying out of clouds when it's +5 C to -15 C.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Dammit FN I just bumped my head on the desk chasing the top to my Jack Daniels while trying to post and have a shot too. I've been reading your posts for a couple of years (even when you were whats his name ) and I must say that if I were going to learn to fly 208B's in icing I'd want your input. I hope that they will take your information and others like you if it can be done. You have so much that cannot be taught but must be learned but as well you can help with a shortcut. *smooch* hahahhaa