NTSB Hearing

[dondk]

Great quotes:

"------
Captain 6900 hours, six disapprovals
typed in aircraft two months prior

F/O 761 hours, one disapproval
initial qualification 3.5 months prior
-------

where did you find this?

 

[TonyC]

If I was king at Pinnacle, the Chief Pilot would come off the stand and head straight for the unemployment line. His cocky, laissez-faire attitude and his flippant answers have NO PLACE in the NTSB hearing.

Oh, yeah, we're great, everybody's fine, nothing's wrong here, I always fly NorthWest mainline because I don't have time to ride Pinnacle jumpseats, blah, blah, blah, oh I guess this and I guess that...



The man could have a sense of decency and respect for the fallen crewmembers and at least take this seriously.






.

 

[Inconceivable]

from the human factors/performance summary:

http://ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinnacle/exhibits/317489.pdf

 

[Inconceivable]

Tony,

That's Terry Mefford. I've known him for eleven years and that's just the way he is. Six years as CP have actually made him MORE diplomatic and professional in public.

This is maybe the third time I have seen him with a tie on--remember, this is the guy in the 90's who used to bring his uniform to work in a grocery bag because he refuses to wear a hat. So, he would change in the bathroom prior to boarding, take his hat off once he got on the ramp and wouldnt touch it until returning to MEM during business hours.

Just another good old boy from the North Mississippi Flying Club who fell up.

quote "professional standars is something I really like. But it's not used very much."

Wonder if he was referrring to the committee or the airline management? >

 

[The_Russian]

Enough is enough.

You guys need to chill out. We all know these guys screwed up on this one. You dont need to go busting on their personal lives. Some of the best pilots in the world have been killed because they did stupid sh!t. I flew with Peter once, and for his total time at the school, he was above average. Many of my good friends taught him how to fly and they are the best pilots and instructors I know. I trust them with my life every day.

We will never again see a day in aviation that all aircraft are once again flown by the finest pilots. In this capitolist society we live in, money can buy anyone anything. A rich guy can buy an F-18 from our government and fly it into your grandmothers house because he sucks. He failed all his ratings at least once or twice. But he has money and can buy a nice toy. With aviation, as big as it is now, anyone can get into it. The EAA and AOPA want EVERYONE to become pilots. Because it lines their pockets with dough. As long as it continues to grow, and regional airlines will hire anyone, crappy pilots will enter our ranks.

 

[TonyC]

That's Terry Mefford. I've known him for eleven years and that's just the way he is. Six years as CP have actually made him MORE diplomatic and professional in public.

Maybe I'm reading him wrong, but his approach to this reminds me of the mishap crew's approach to the mishap flight. Since he's the Chief Pilot, it would seem to me that a serious approach in his demeanor might inspire the same in his pilots. Had they been more professional to begin with, perhaps he wouldn't be wearing his tie today.



Just an observation, and an opinion.







.

 

[check6]

An addendum to what I just typed:


In no way am I an airline pilot yet, and I realize the situation for these two might have been a bit stressful to say the least. Also, I've worked in a crew environment for only but a few hours, so my CRM experience is rather limited. But it seems to me that communication between FO/Captain and Captain/ATC and ATC/FO was poor.

 

[kmox29]

Does anyone know if the NTSB interviewed individual Pinnacle pilots? I am watching this interview, and all I see is 9E management (including the chief pilot) telling us how wonderful everything is at Pinnacle, how the training is top notch, and how no one knows anything about the "410 Club" or any other line dog stuff.

I am in a crashpad with Pinnacle guys and know a bunch more. They have considerably different views of management, training, as well as other line pilots.

 

[79%N1]

I cant believe how giddy with glee these guys were to get to 410!!!! Who freakin cares! Does 410 really look so much different than 370??? Answer.....NO! They were going on and on about this like they were climbing freakin Everest! I was embarrassed reading this. Someone please enlighten me, what was the big freakin deal?

 

[satpak77]

We will never again see a day in aviation that all aircraft are once again flown by the finest pilots.

nothing like "Aiming High" and trying to make our industry the best it can be

 

[PCL_128]

Maybe I'm reading him wrong, but his approach to this reminds me of the mishap crew's approach to the mishap flight. Since he's the Chief Pilot, it would seem to me that a serious approach in his demeanor might inspire the same in his pilots. Had they been more professional to begin with, perhaps he wouldn't be wearing his tie today.



Just an observation, and an opinion..

Very well said. Unfortunately, people like Mefford abound at Pinnacle. I read the CVR transcript and it makes me sick, but I can't say it surprised me. I see the same kinds of attitudes almost every day I go to work. Nobody cares what the book says. I don't think I've ever once seen a Captain pull out the FCOM to check the climb capability chart to see if we can make it to the new altitude he wants me to request. No one notifies dispatch of anything. No one checks the release to see what altitudes have been calculated for fuel burn data. A cowboy attitude prevails at this airline, and you're just seeing a glimpse of it through these hearings.

 

[ultrarunner]

I cant believe how giddy with glee these guys were to get to 410!!!! Who freakin cares! Does 410 really look so much different than 370??? Answer.....NO! They were going on and on about this like they were climbing freakin Everest! I was embarrassed reading this. Someone please enlighten me, what was the big freakin deal?

I was thinking the same thing. Geez, it's like they were on a mission. Maybe I missed something, but I can never remember getting excited about stuff like that.

 

[Inconceivable]

the big deal was the ability to join the "4-1-0 Club"

 

[PCL_128]

the big deal was the ability to join the "4-1-0 Club"

Am I the only one that never heard of this "club?" I'm a member and I didn't even realize it.

 

[regionaltard]

where did you find this?

Read it and weep.

 

[Simon Says]

WOW!! The newspaper article makes me sick. The FO was everybody's son blah blah blah. . . .

The transcript is interesting to me because they declare an emergency w/o hardly even telling the controller what is going on. At one point, the controller "confirmed" that they had a single engine failure. ATC didn't even know the full situation until the handoff!!!! Somethin' else that bothered me is the lack of CRM. It sounds to be like there was a lot of shuffling of papers and the captain was freaking out while the FO was flying the plane. It's good someone was flying, but come on. . . communicate more!!!

I don't think this accident is anything like Alaska 261. The difference between the pilots in the Alaska accident is they didn't deserve what they got. The Pinnacle accident was "stupid induced." Inexperience is the big thing here . . .

Ya, I wasn't comparing accidents, just the same sick to my stomach feeling reading these things.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

Am I the only one that never heard of this "club?" I'm a member and I didn't even realize it.

Yea, were can I get a sticker?

I am also sick to my stomach reading this. The transcript is a good read. It is also shows where a "little too much fun" can lead to. Having known the PIC it saddens me about what happened, but at the same time frustrates me that they were so careless. Between the seat swaping and continously allowing the stick puller go off in the climb, then leveling off with such a slow airspeed. I know the Lear is nothing close to a CRJ, but it gets squirly at around 200 Kts and we're tens of thousands lighter than a CRJ, so i cant even begin to imagine how it was for them at 170kts. RIP dudes.

 

[79%N1]

I am as dismayed after reading all this as the rest of you, but the most important questions to me that I havent seen answered by the NTSB or anyone else is......why did both engines quit, and why in the world could they not get one restarted???

 

[Yank McCobb]

Does anyone know if the NTSB interviewed individual Pinnacle pilots?

If you read the Ops Group Chairman's Factual Report it is apparent that they did. Maybe not the "guys in your crashpad", but Pinnacle Captains, First Officers, ground and sim instructors, check airmen and others.

http://ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinnacle/exhibits/317489.pdf

 

[PCL_128]

I am as dismayed after reading all this as the rest of you, but the most important questions to me that I havent seen answered by the NTSB or anyone else is......why did both engines quit, and why in the world could they not get one restarted???

Both engines quit because they stalled the plane several times at FL410. Bank angle exceeded 85 degrees and pitch angle exceeded +/-30 degrees during the shaker/pusher events. In the thin air at FL410 all that gyrating around is bound to cause loss of airflow to the engines. As to why they would not restart, apparently the #2 engine at least was nothing more than a solid block of metal after the temp spiked during the flameout. I don't know why #1 wouldn't restart, but if #2 was so severly damaged, it stands to reason that some pretty bad damage might have been done to #1 also.

 

[Comin-In-Hot]

Anyone know if Bombardier, FAA, or individual ops dept's have limited the ceiling of the CRJ since this happened?

 

[Glacialfury1906]

Seat Swapping????

Can any Pinnacle guys chime in about your seat swapping policy? I'm not following exactly when they switched seats and then tried to swap back again? I'm aware that they switched on the way up. Just not sure about on the way down. That doesn't seem clear in the CVR of the last 20 minutes. This is very sad commentary.........May they RIP...........

 

[BigShotXJTdrvr]

I have no knowledge of CRJ engines or systems, but the published airstart envelope at ExpressJet for the EMB 145 is at least 260 knots indicated airspeed.

I have spoken with a few very experienced instructors at our training dept and they have said in a real-world situation 260 knots for a windmill start is probably "optomistic at best" If it was even possible to have resarted either of these CRJ engines (damage?) the airpseed required to do so may have required such an extreme nose-down pitch attitude and descent rate that it may have been too far outside the normal realm of flying to accomplish for two guys who didn't really know what a bad spot they were in. For most of our flying careers pilots are condtioned to try to glide as far as we can. These guys may have been victims of normal flight training which was inapplicable to this dire situation. Would you try to glide to a field to land, or would you pitch way they hell down to try to spool a dead engine? In a similar situation, I would probably try to glide as far as I could too. They almost made an airport. Just a really, really bad day.

 

[PCL_128]

Can any Pinnacle guys chime in about your seat swapping policy? I'm not following exactly when they switched seats and then tried to swap back again? I'm aware that they switched on the way up. Just not sure about on the way down. That doesn't seem clear in the CVR of the last 20 minutes. This is very sad commentary.........May they RIP...........

There is no seat-swapping policy. If you're the Captain, then you sit in the left seat. If you're the FO, then you sit in the right seat.

Apparently the swapped at some point on the way up between 10k and 25k and swapped back around 10k on the way down. It was talked about in the opening statements at the beginning of the day.

 

[PCL_128]

Would you try to glide to a field to land, or would you pitch way they hell down to try to spool a dead engine? In a similar situation, I would probably try to glide as far as I could too. They almost made an airport. Just a really, really bad day.

The really sad thing is that they were right over an airport when the flameout happened. They could have spiraled down and landed at the field right under them. Instead, they crashed just short of an airport 100 miles from where the flameout occured. Gliding as far as possible isn't always the best idea. SA is important. If they had told ATC that they had a dual flameout right away, then ATC could have told them that SGF was right under them.

 

[Auburn_CFI]

The really sad thing is that they were right over an airport when the flameout happened. They could have spiraled down and landed at the field right under them. Instead, they crashed just short of an airport 100 miles from where the flameout occured. Gliding as far as possible isn't always the best idea. SA is important. If they had told ATC that they had a dual flameout right away, then ATC could have told them that SGF was right under them.

Did the captain fail to realize the double engine failure or was he just misleading ATC? Or possibly I read the transcript wrong, but it seemed to me that he did not want ATC to know he had a double engine failure.

Auburn_CFI

 

[COOPERVANE]

Sounds like they never got enough airflow through the engines to even attempt a start. 300 knots might have overcome the so-called "core-lock".

Did they ever try and start #1? If so why didn't it relight using APU bleed air? was the LCV in the correct position? Engine damage?

I feel sick after reading the transcripts


RIP guys

 

[ultrarunner]

If this transcript shows anything at all, it's that no amount of training can teach good judgement and common sense.

These guys were hosed from the moment they decided to try for 410.

 

[satpak77]

If this transcript shows anything at all, it's that no amount of training can teach good judgement and common sense.

These guys were hosed from the moment they decided to try for 410.

thank you thank you thank you

AMEN

 

[bige2000]

The APU LCV was probably in the right position, however due to switch position logic, it will not open when the 10th stage switches are pushed in. The 10ths fail closed so they will indicate closed with the switches pushed in, but the LCV will not open. I dont know if the engines were damaged, so it might not have even mattered.