NTSB Cites Pilot Fatigue in 2009 Delta landing at ATL, WSJ

[Dornier 335]

thruthemurk two different issues here.

The Delta crew on an int'l flight without an IRO. Not sure what the DL OPS or regs state in a situation like that. Fact is, the working crew couldn't rest. The captain on that flight had trouble resting adequately before. Fatigue creeps up, add a few unusual circumstances and we have a recipe for an incident. We all have been there. When fatigued, you start screwing up. Sometimes you don't even know that you are fatigued until you start making mistakes. Usually some that are not typical of yourself.

Now the FAA decides to retrain the pilots. In what? Runway lighting? Taxiway markings? Is there anything new those 10,000+ hr pilots are going to learn? This is what pisses me off about the Feds: their attitude of dealing with pilots like children. You screwed up? Back to school. Problem solved. On paper. Feds happy.

The NPRM. I agree with you 100%. Question is: Do you think an airline pilot would have come up with an extension to 10 hours? That's only from someone who's not in touch with reality. 10 hours, even daylight only is way too much.

Worse, other airline employees are going to get trained in fatigue recognition so that they can turn in pilots who looked fatigued. There will be an on site fatigue monitor who will then assess whether you are fatigued, much like getting tested for drugs/alcohol now.

This is really dangerous. Especially when you work for a regional that is thin staffed, chaotically operated and usually intimidation to their pilots. This way they can really screw with you. Although I do see the good intend behind it, the potential of abuse is frightening, especially from management or a Fed if he has a bad day.

 

[Tanker Clown]

What a crock. Fatigue? How many AF pilots fly all over the world, land in combat zones, all while being on a 24 hour duty day? Tons do. How many land on taxi ways? NONE!

I think it's just part of culture based on complacency. Maybe that's due to vastly degraded work rules/compensation...but I wish these guys could have taken their jobs more seriously. There were lots of lives at stake...and they got lucky this time.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

What a crock. Fatigue? How many AF pilots fly all over the world, land in combat zones, all while being on a 24 hour duty day? Tons do. How many land on taxi ways? NONE!

I think it's just part of culture based on complacency. Maybe that's due to vastly degraded work rules/compensation...but I wish these guys could have taken their jobs more seriously. There were lots of lives at stake...and they got lucky this time.

Care to comment on the C17 in Alaska??

Awww, too soon?

 

[Dornier 335]

What a crock. Fatigue? How many AF pilots fly all over the world, land in combat zones, all while being on a 24 hour duty day? Tons do. How many land on taxi ways? NONE!

Not sure if you can compare AF vs. civilian flying. Do AF pilots regularly fly up to 90+ hours/month?

 

[Tanker Clown]

Not sure if you can compare AF vs. civilian flying. Do AF pilots regularly fly up to 90+ hours/month?

Actually, some AF pilots fly up to 150 hours in a month.

Bill, I don't think they've released a cause on the C-17 accident in Alaska. I'm sure they were very professional. Especially since they were getting paid more than a Delta crew.

 

[thruthemurk]

thruthemurk two different issues here.

The Delta crew on an int'l flight without an IRO. .. Fatigue creeps up, add a few unusual circumstances and we have a recipe for an incident. We all have been there. When fatigued, you start screwing up. Sometimes you don't even know that you are fatigued until you start making mistakes. Usually some that are not typical of yourself.

I thought they had an IRO that got sick - maybe I misunderstood the report. Your point is taken that we can be fatigued with or without an IRO. My point was that if you have been up for 12 hours and you see a 10 hour night flight in front of you with no rest opportunity there is probably a responsibility to take yourself off the flight. If the stars line up and you kill everybody that might have been the link in the chain you could have broken. Its never an easy decision and I have done the wrong thing more than once.

Now the FAA decides to retrain the pilots. In what? Runway lighting? Taxiway markings? Is there anything new those 10,000+ hr pilots are going to learn? This is what pisses me off about the Feds: their attitude of dealing with pilots like children. You screwed up? Back to school. Problem solved. On paper. Feds happy.

I don't know - they screwed up. What is your answer? Fire them? Ignore it? Take no action because they didn't mean to be fatigued? We have all been fatigued to one degree or another and will be again. That doesn't mean we dont have the opportunity to learn more about what puts us there and how to mitigate it. At the end of the day the pilot is the last defense (as always). Other posts on this thread show the ignorance on the subject and the idea that you can somehow macho through it with the same performance level as a midday well rested flight. The Rosenkind data from the NASA-Ames research was very eye opening (at least for me). Kind of like the hypoxia videos. Maybe training will bring someone to a new level of understanding that they didn't previously have. I have 15,000 hours and I learn new things all the time.

The NPRM. I agree with you 100%. Question is: Do you think an airline pilot would have come up with an extension to 10 hours? That's only from someone who's not in touch with reality. 10 hours, even daylight only is way too much.

Yes.. I know lots of pilots who favor this with the right protections. By limiting duty and opening up flight time you can fly 4 9 hour days in a row (as long as the longest day does not exceed 13 hours. This could allow a commuter to make one less long commute per month - or a pilot in base to have 3 or 4 more days off. I believe that time away from the airport with shorter duty days will do more to mitigate fatigue than keeping flight time at 8 hours and duty at 16.
In my first airline life I routinely did 14+ hour scheduled duty days with 7 legs and a sit or two to boot. Lucky I was young because they were ridiculously long days. The flight time might have totaled 6 or 7 hours. I've also done redeye transcons after an earlier evening flight and a two+ hour sit before heading east. 12 hours of duty and flying right through the WOCL. Less than 8 flight hours but still Ridiculous!! Neither scenario will be legal under the new rules. Will there still be fatiguing trips - obviously. The nature of our work ensures difficult schedules. I do believe that there will be a lot of improvements for the AVERAGE pilot - but also agree we wont really know how it will playout until we see what the scheduling software will do with the rules.

 

[UALRATT]

What a crock. Fatigue? How many AF pilots fly all over the world, land in combat zones, all while being on a 24 hour duty day? Tons do. How many land on taxi ways? NONE!

Trust that you've had enough rest since that statement, because it sounded like you were pretty fatigue...

 

[nwaf16dude]

disregard, not going there