NTSB Cites Pilot Fatigue in 2009 Delta landing at ATL, WSJ

[SLUF4]

It's always a chain of events

 

[JAFI]

What a bunch of bullcr@p. Retrain the pilots in what exactly? I'd like to see one of those desk-jockey FAA farts fly a regular airline schedule for one month.

How can you explain fatigue to a federal employee that lives on a 8-4 schedule?

Many of those "Desk Jockey FAA Farts" have flown airline schedules for years before going to the FAA. I know Inspectors from many current and bankrupt carriers. The Administrator was an Eastern Airlines Captain. If your looking for bullcr@p, try the mirror.

Venting on a pilot board will give you nothing to change the system. The NPRM, media, elected officals, etc. are the way to vent for change. You want change? Find out how to work for it....Also knowing what your talking about is a good way to start.

 

[Dornier 335]

Many of those "Desk Jockey FAA Farts" have flown airline schedules for years before going to the FAA. I know Inspectors from many current and bankrupt carriers. The Administrator was an Eastern Airlines Captain. If your looking for bullcr@p, try the mirror.

Venting on a pilot board will give you nothing to change the system. The NPRM, media, elected officals, etc. are the way to vent for change. You want change? Find out how to work for it....Also knowing what your talking about is a good way to start.

Instead of looking at the mirror, I am looking at the recent FAA proposal. Enough said. I have watched many "Desk Jockey FAA Farts" either in the office at a few FSDOs or currently on an inspection duty. Sorry, not impressed. The most important statement seems to be "I hope it's not taking too long, cause at four I am going home".

Who cares if the administrator was an ex Eastern Airlines Captain. Look at the ALPA president now. Don't care where he is ex- from. Once you are at a powerful position like that, you change.

 

[densoo]

Venting on a pilot board will give you nothing to change the system. The NPRM, media, elected officals, etc. are the way to vent for change. You want change? Find out how to work for it.

Here's the link to make a comment! Fill in the right side, left side personal information is optional. There are over 150 comments made so far. General consensus is 10 hours of flying is too much, nine hours rest to little.

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#submitComment?R=0900006480b4ea5b

 

[thruthemurk]

Instead of looking at the mirror, I am looking at the recent FAA proposal. Enough said. I have watched many "Desk Jockey FAA Farts" either in the office at a few FSDOs or currently on an inspection duty. Sorry, not impressed. The most important statement seems to be "I hope it's not taking too long, cause at four I am going home".

Who cares if the administrator was an ex Eastern Airlines Captain. Look at the ALPA president now. Don't care where he is ex- from. Once you are at a powerful position like that, you change.

Just curious if you read the NPRM. There were a plethora of requests throughout the proposal asking pilots to comment on the proposed solutions. The document was the most open NPRM I have ever read, in terms of stating what threats they were trying to address and how they were going to address them. It then asked for the experts (you and me?) to please comment and let them know if their logic was flawed. While nothing is perfect I believe the document is a huge improvement. I am the first to admit that my review is biased to the type of flying I have done at four different carriers and is not inclusive of long haul East West.

Having said that, the fact that duty is now limited to 60 hours a week vs. the previous 96 hours a week seems like a difficult improvement to argue with. My own experience tells me that duty and number of legs is a much bigger factor in fatigue than just flight time. Transcon turns will still not be legal, and you can only be scheduled for 13 hours a day in the most optimum scenario (unaugmented showing between 7am and 1pm). These two new duty limits are HUGE.

This flight may have been in violation under either set of rules as the Captain chose to continue on unaugmented instead of diverting when the augmented pilot fell out of rotation. I am not second guessing him personally as I was not there - just pointing out one angle. If you were on a two man crew and one pilot dropped out 2 hours in on an 8 hour flight - would you continue to destination? Required crew is required crew.

I do see the irony that a 10 hour flight will not require the third crewmembers with the new rules - but that is DAYLIGHT ONLY. The all night flights will be limited to 8 hours flight and 9 hours duty - HUGE improvement over today.

Just my opinion, but I read all 145 pages.....twice!

 

[Dornier 335]

thruthemurk two different issues here.

The Delta crew on an int'l flight without an IRO. Not sure what the DL OPS or regs state in a situation like that. Fact is, the working crew couldn't rest. The captain on that flight had trouble resting adequately before. Fatigue creeps up, add a few unusual circumstances and we have a recipe for an incident. We all have been there. When fatigued, you start screwing up. Sometimes you don't even know that you are fatigued until you start making mistakes. Usually some that are not typical of yourself.

Now the FAA decides to retrain the pilots. In what? Runway lighting? Taxiway markings? Is there anything new those 10,000+ hr pilots are going to learn? This is what pisses me off about the Feds: their attitude of dealing with pilots like children. You screwed up? Back to school. Problem solved. On paper. Feds happy.

The NPRM. I agree with you 100%. Question is: Do you think an airline pilot would have come up with an extension to 10 hours? That's only from someone who's not in touch with reality. 10 hours, even daylight only is way too much.

Worse, other airline employees are going to get trained in fatigue recognition so that they can turn in pilots who looked fatigued. There will be an on site fatigue monitor who will then assess whether you are fatigued, much like getting tested for drugs/alcohol now.

This is really dangerous. Especially when you work for a regional that is thin staffed, chaotically operated and usually intimidation to their pilots. This way they can really screw with you. Although I do see the good intend behind it, the potential of abuse is frightening, especially from management or a Fed if he has a bad day.

 

[Tanker Clown]

What a crock. Fatigue? How many AF pilots fly all over the world, land in combat zones, all while being on a 24 hour duty day? Tons do. How many land on taxi ways? NONE!

I think it's just part of culture based on complacency. Maybe that's due to vastly degraded work rules/compensation...but I wish these guys could have taken their jobs more seriously. There were lots of lives at stake...and they got lucky this time.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

What a crock. Fatigue? How many AF pilots fly all over the world, land in combat zones, all while being on a 24 hour duty day? Tons do. How many land on taxi ways? NONE!

I think it's just part of culture based on complacency. Maybe that's due to vastly degraded work rules/compensation...but I wish these guys could have taken their jobs more seriously. There were lots of lives at stake...and they got lucky this time.

Care to comment on the C17 in Alaska??

Awww, too soon?

 

[Dornier 335]

What a crock. Fatigue? How many AF pilots fly all over the world, land in combat zones, all while being on a 24 hour duty day? Tons do. How many land on taxi ways? NONE!

Not sure if you can compare AF vs. civilian flying. Do AF pilots regularly fly up to 90+ hours/month?

 

[Tanker Clown]

Not sure if you can compare AF vs. civilian flying. Do AF pilots regularly fly up to 90+ hours/month?

Actually, some AF pilots fly up to 150 hours in a month.

Bill, I don't think they've released a cause on the C-17 accident in Alaska. I'm sure they were very professional. Especially since they were getting paid more than a Delta crew.