NTSB Board Meeting for Pinnacle 3701

[Poahi]

Part of the problem is that the CF-34-3b1 engines are under powered. Anyone who flies the CRJ 200 knows that ATC often has us stop short of our assigned altitude because they don't anticipate us climbing at 500fpm at higher altitudes and slowing in the process. In addition, the CRJ can climb to an altitude it can't maintain. This doesn't excuse the deliberate deviation from proper proceedures, but it does mean we need to know when they are going to core lock.

Let's face it, the 200 is really a corporate jet trying to fly as an airliner. This is why I support the NTSB's recommendations and why we should be using the accident to prevent future accidents not simply jeer at dead pilots who used poor judgement.

 

[PCL_128]

It seemed like the board really hammered them on using VS mode instead of SPD or IAS mode to climb up there. Just wondering what everyone else does? Most people I fly with do use VS mode or Pitch mode above 10,000.

Flying in SPD mode past the mid 20s is about impossible in this plane. I usually keep it in SPD mode (with TURB mode engaged to dampen the oscillations) until it starts to dip below 500 fpm, then I switch to VS mode. You simply can't fly this plane in SPD mode all the way up to cruise.

 

[kmox29]

I think this case is more attributed to bad luck rather than unprofessionalism.

Yeah, it was bad luck that caused them to swap seats. It was bad luck that caused them to not reference the performance data for operations af FL410 that night. It was bad luck that caused them to ignore all the warnings of an impending stall. It was bad luck which caused them to deviate from SOP. It was bad luck which caused them to not prepare for an emergency landing in a timely manner.

As with so many other things, YPF, you're right again. Let it be known the crash of Flagship 3701 was caused by BAD LUCK.

Someone nailed it perfectly in an earlier post on this thread:

This should be classified as "Pilots were being stupid, pilots fcuked up, and unfortunately, pilots died."

 

[pilotdiscretion]

It seemed like the board really hammered them on using VS mode instead of SPD or IAS mode to climb up there. Just wondering what everyone else does? Most people I fly with do use VS mode or Pitch mode above 10,000.

Their point wasn't about the mode the autopilot uses but rather what the pilot uses as controlling in the climb, the indicate airspeed or the vertical speed. You would be surprised at how many instructors teach pilots to climb based on their vertical speed with little to know regard to airspeed.

 

[DoinTime]

The best vertical mode is pitch mode but due to some seriously unenlightened instructors at Pinnacle pitch mode is a forbidden fruit.

 

[Inconceivable]

Heh. In 2000 PTCH meant that you had "screwed up" and it had reverted to a default. Speed mode to 10,000 then VS to altitude. No exceptions.

Of course, in 2000 people were nervous if you hand flew the plane above 1000 AGL.

 

[paulsalem]

The best vertical mode is pitch mode but due to some seriously unenlightened instructors at Pinnacle pitch mode is a forbidden fruit.

Same where I work. They never explained why we're not supposed to use it.

 

[xjgearbtch]

VS that CRJ. Ever sit in the back when your mighty crew uses Speed mode? Sucks, the AC pitches around, you sink into your sit and the guy next to you mutters something about not wanting to die. Ever sit in front of a tube in tracon and watch a CRJ's rate of climb vary like crazy as it continually recovers from it's terrible design. ATC wants a consitent Rate of climb to get you out of their airspace. In my opinion speed mode won't do it. watch how much your ROC changes in the speed mode next time you fly.

VS that wanna be airliner, until your ROC can't maintain the speed with the climb power setting, then change your ROC and inform ATC. Incriments of 500 fpm works well. Upper altitudes use the speed mode, much more critical up there.

 

[DiverDriver]

I dunno. I must be dumb. But I use speed mode to climb all the way unless I need a particular VS to make a crossing. What I see is people not keeping the N1s in the carrot and as the N1 speed drops off the climb rate will diminish. The crews long inattention then leaves the plane climbing very slowly so they jam the N1 back up to the carrot which gives an acceleration and the plane pitches up to maintain speed. THAT's why you are getting your pitch excursions in Speed mode not that it can't handle it.

Or, at least that's what I've learned over my 6 years as CA on the CRJ. But, each pilot has to fly it the way they want and as long as the way they want to fly it gets the job done on profile and doesn't stall it I don't care.

 

[Tarzan]

Same where I work. They never explained why we're not supposed to use it.

Before EICAS 200 I believ it was safer to use than VS. In VS you could stall the airplane whereas in pitch it woud just give up the climb (something the 200 accels at).

I like pitch from Accel Alt up to the mid 20's on the 700. I liked VS better on the 200 though all the way.