Northwest to shift flying to Regionals

[Jamis81]

Here's an interesting article from the MSP Star Tribune..
looks like an interesting change is going on at NWA..

http://www.startribune.com/535/story/1060988.html

 

[Thedude]

Big surprise there. Until mainline can get control of the RJ issue, expect more flying to be transferred to the ineffecient RJ.

Plz stop posting links and put up the actual article.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Big surprise there. Until mainline can get control of the RJ issue, expect more flying to be transferred to the ineffecient RJ.

You mean until the main line pilots start growing a pair. Vote yes to outsourcing and then complaint on FI, classic.
Where is this 60% of yes voters? I can't find the single one

 

[redflyer65]

Their at home still calculating their pension benefits and could care less about the bottom half of the list. Truly sad.

 

[eaglefly]

You mean until the main line pilots start growing a pair. Vote yes to outsourcing and then complaint on FI, classic.
Where is this 60% of yes voters? I can't find the single one

Grow a pair is right.

They currently are nutless, because they were cut off a few months ago.....................BY THEMSELVES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[canyonblue]

Northwest CEO Doug Steenland said the new 76-seaters "will provide our customers with a regional airplane that will have a first-class section and that will have a cabin feel of a mainline airplane."

Without all those hassles of Mainline pay.

 

[TurboAWD]

Hey, have you seen the rates NW mainline agreed to fly the EMB190 at?

They are UNDERCUTTING the regionals.

Turbo

 

[IXLR8]

Umm....

"The current fleet plan is different from the one presented last spring during the bankruptcy contract vote," Northwest ALPA Council 1 leaders said in a Friday memo to Twin Cities-area pilots. "Management indicates that DC-9 replacement aircraft are one of their top priorities, but that isn't addressed in the plan," the local council union leaders said.

I think Mngt has addressed the "plan"....

 

[Occam's Razor]

Sheep!

Read the article again!

There is nothing in the Disclosure Statement(s) that indicate a reduction in the fleet. That's the OFFICIAL statement. A couple of managment toads gave a briefing to some pilots and a reporter ran with it. Look at the growth numbers NWA is giving the court. Management is trying to spook the pilots into coughing up some staffing relief. Every time they've painted themselves into a corner with staffing, they've threatened fleet numbers as their only "possible adjustment". In '96, they did it with the Freighter fleet. (Last time I looked, we were still flying them) In '99, when they couldn't hire pilots fast enough while training upgrades, they threatened A330 deliveries. (A330 deliveries were later accelerated, without relief!)

You can listen to their rhetoric if you trust them...but I prefer to watch their feet.

 

[Fly4hire]

Read the article again!

There is nothing in the Disclosure Statement(s) that indicate a reduction in the fleet. That's the OFFICIAL statement.

Yeah, and they count the SJ's in the fleet total when they claim flat domestic fleet - DC9's go away to be replaced with same number of SJ's = no reduction in fleet. I guess that's not a reduction from the EMT perspective.

A couple of managment toads gave a briefing to some pilots and a reporter ran with it. Look at the growth numbers NWA is giving the court.

You mean the MEC? It's the same numbers - not some made up stuff. The Council 1 chairman had the nad's to put it out after the said management toads were breifing the pilots publically with stuff that was supposedly private FP info.

And why the hell are you trying to minimize this?

Management is trying to spook the pilots into coughing up some staffing relief. Every time they've painted themselves into a corner with staffing, they've threatened fleet numbers as their only "possible adjustment".

They have not approached ALPA for relief, and these numbers have been out there for a while. I do agree there will be another staffing shortage, but there is no where to flex - look at the monthly maxes - they are red lining already, with the inherent system breakdown with any hiccup

In '96, they did it with the Freighter fleet. (Last time I looked, we were still flying them) In '99, when they couldn't hire pilots fast enough while training upgrades, they threatened A330 deliveries. (A330 deliveries were later accelerated, without relief

There are still 500 plus pilots on furlough. They say they only need 150 this FY. They'll hit the bottom of the list only because 30% are returning. Rumors of recalls stopping once they get the 150 for the year - at 75 now.

New hires - what's a new hire? FWIW, I hope you are right.

 

[clickclickboom]

Dont forget that they can take out their aggression on the jetblue pilots/ nwa furloughees trying to get to JFK..

You want to ride my jumpseat? You are ruining the industry get off my plane

Uh roger tower understand number 13 behind airlink hey billy how many seats are in those compass 190's?

 

[redflyer65]

Has anyone posted the E190 rates?

There is absolutely no reason for ANY of the Northwest pilots to give relief on anything. Just review the plan post bankruptcy and see how much cash these clowns will be sharing. It amounts to theft of every labor group on property. And they will be laughing their @ss off to the bank, they are starting to snicker already.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Yeah, and they count the SJ's in the fleet total when they claim flat domestic fleet - DC9's go away to be replaced with same number of SJ's = no reduction in fleet. I guess that's not a reduction from the EMT perspective.

Look at it fleet-by-fleet. The status of the DC-9 fleet shows very little change from the projections given to ALPA in '99...and that was a time when we were parking DC-9's, buying RJ's for Airlink, and hiring pilots...all at the same time.

The plan Rainey passed out to ALPA and at the Base Visits didn't have a firm timeline on much of the fleet activity. I've been around here long enough to know what happens in the next chapter.

You mean the MEC? It's the same numbers - not some made up stuff. The Council 1 chairman had the nad's to put it out after the said management toads were briefing the pilots publically with stuff that was supposedly private FP info.

Huh? The Disclosure Statement is a public court document. Read it carefully for any inclusion of the fleet plan numbers Rainey is putting out. There is a good reason why you don't see them. And remember this: If the no-kidding fleet plan was private, you wouldn't have read it in the Council 1 update.

My belief is that the "plan" Rainey put out is a thinly-veiled threat of fleet action to stir ALPA to action and/or distract us from the pending announcement of the Executive Compensation part of the Disclosure Statement (one of the segments missing in the document given to the court).

And why the hell are you trying to minimize this?

Huh? This ain't my first rodeo. I've been here long enough to recognize management's tactics. I'm not trying to "minimize" anything! I'm trying to figure out how pilots can discount everything we hear from management unless it relates to a fleet reduction! Early deliveries? Ha! We don't buy it! Hiring? We don't buy it! "We're all in this together!"? We don't buy it! We're gonna park some DC-9's? Yikes! It's true! It's true!

They have not approached ALPA for relief, and these numbers have been out there for a while. I do agree there will be another staffing shortage, but there is no where to flex - look at the monthly maxes - they are red lining already, with the inherent system breakdown with any hiccup

They HAVE approached ALPA for relief. Call your rep. IT was mentioned again at the Council 1 meeting. We're you there to hear it?

There are still 500 plus pilots on furlough. They say they only need 150 this FY. They'll hit the bottom of the list only because 30% are returning. Rumors of recalls stopping once they get the 150 for the year - at 75 now.

So...which one of the announcements by Rainey do you believe? The announcement that they're gonna park a large portion of the fleet...or the announcement that they'll be hiring by the 4th Qtr?

If you buy one, shouldn't you buy them both?

 

[TurboAWD]

hey billy how many seats are in those compass 190's?

Uh, I don't believe they can place 190's at Comass, only mainline.
However, the rates they agreed to fly the 190's at are sick.

Turbo

 

[clickclickboom]

Uh, I don't believe they can place 190's at Comass, only mainline.
However, the rates they agreed to fly the 190's at are sick.

Turbo

my whole point was that there are still some non commuter tools there that love to blame all their problems on the advent of companies like jb, swest, frontier, and airtran


of course we can all just blame skybus and sing around the campfire

 

[Thomas39]

Hey, have you seen the rates NW mainline agreed to fly the EMB190 at?

They are UNDERCUTTING the regionals.

Turbo

I hope you use better judgement in an airplane than you do on this forum. To which regional rates are you referring to? NWA rates for the 190 are HIGHER than US Airways, Jet Blue and of course Rebublic. Seems to me, you always get you facts screwed up and are too quick to take a shot at NWA pilots for something you probably "heard" in the crew room.

Don't believe me? Take a look at the pay scales posted below. NWA Captain rates for a 77-100 seat airplane are:

Year Hourly
1 79.75
2 81.57
3 83.37
4 85.22
5 87.11
6 88.84
7 90.63
8 92.44
9 94.28
10 96.16
11 98.09
12 100.06

List at ticket counter or gate. CASS participant.

List at ticket counter or gate. CASS participant.

 

[TurboAWD]

I hope you use better judgement in an airplane than you do on this forum. To which regional rates are you referring to?

I know the truth hurts. The fact that a regional would be even close to a mainline pay scale is just hard to believe. However, lets take a look at what Horizon gets paid to fly a 70 seat (all coach) CRJ 700. Max CA is over $120 plus (if I recall) trip rigs, duty rigs, and profit sharing. For a much smaller airplane than a EMB190. Oh, yeah, they make over $110 max CA for the Q400 as well. Not only is it much smaller, but a prop! The AirWis max CA pay for a CRJ200 BEFORE the arbitrator brought the old pay scale back is I believe $92/hr. For an airplane HALF THE SIZE of a EMB190. I don't know what the new (old) pay scale is. Eagle? $98/hr for CRJ700. ExpressJet? $95/hr for EMB145 (again, HALF THE SIZE). Republic $114. Even MESA hits $100/hr eventually for the CRJ900. Now I now we can argue about the fact that a 15 year+ CA won't be on the EMB190 at NWA (tell that to the 17 year seniority furloughs at USAirways). Or, that FO rates are better. Whatever. Bottom line is that your EMB190 rates mean that I don't ever have to take any BS ever again from a mainline pilot for undercutting the industry.

I'm not happy about this. I wanted to work for NWA. However, the thought of being a year 4 FO on the EMB190 and still barely making $50,000/year is not palatable to me.

Thanks,
Turbo

 

[Thomas39]

Still don't understand your logic here. NWA rates for a 190 are higher than the rates for other airlines (US Airways, Jet Blue, Republic) flying the same airplane. Additionally we negotiated our rates AFTER other carriers had a lower pay scale for the 190. Also NWA pay rates don't go out to 18 year scales like the other carriers you mentioned. Look at the pay scales in years 1-12 and compare with the following:

AWAC: year 1 57hr to year 12 80hr
Horizon: year 1 71hr to year 12 101hr
Eagle: year 1 63hr to year 12 87hr
Express: year 1 60hr to year 12 82hr

All are less than NWA rates for the 190. So your original post and statement is incorrect.

 

[boxjockey]

Geeeee wwwiiizzzzz!!!! I can't believe you are actually defending this pay scale. You are beating out a REGIONAL captain on equipment that is exactly HALF the size by $15/hour, at a LEGACY CARRIER!!! I, I just don't have the words.....

box

 

[BoilerUP]

In the interest of accurate comparison, AWAC's concessionary BAE-146 rates effective Oct. 06 would be $93.52 for a 12 year CA. Under the pre-concessionary 2001 contract, the 12 year CA rate would be $106.79 effective 8/1/05.

All is a moot point because the Bacs were parked Easter 2006, but its worthy to note for comparison's sake.

 

[TurboAWD]

Geeeee wwwiiizzzzz!!!! I can't believe you are actually defending this pay scale. You are beating out a REGIONAL captain on equipment that is exactly HALF the size by $15/hour, at a LEGACY CARRIER!!! I, I just don't have the words.....

box

That is my point exactly.

Turbo

 

[bouttime]

it will get ugly this week when managment announces the executive bonuses. For over 400 execs the smallest one is $1 million

 

[Smarta$$]

it will get ugly this week when managment announces the executive bonuses. For over 400 execs the smallest one is $1 million

I think I have to throw up.

 

[Marko Ramius]

That is my point exactly.

Turbo

What is your point exactly, that rates negotiated under bk are poor but still better than rates negotiated by several regionals when times were fatter? You also fail to quantify the benefit of getting the airplanes that will be around for a longer time(190's) flown by mainline.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

it will get ugly this week when managment announces the executive bonuses. For over 400 execs the smallest one is $1 million

Most of which is company stock, which is normal practice in business. By giving the management a stake in the success of the company, they are more motivated to see it successful. This is an important part of gaining the confidence of new investors.

 

[crashpad]

I think we're are seeing the killing blow across the skull of NWA pilots. Management skillfully employed Mesaba and Pinnacle to dig the trenches. Now they're filling them with mainline pilots. Prepare to be buried in your own dirt.

 

[Thomas39]

Geeeee wwwiiizzzzz!!!! I can't believe you are actually defending this pay scale. You are beating out a REGIONAL captain on equipment that is exactly HALF the size by $15/hour, at a LEGACY CARRIER!!! I, I just don't have the words.....

box

I am not defending the rates. I know they suck and we will obviously push for pay scale increases across the board when this contract is up. I was merely pointing out that turbo's claim that NWA was undercutting the regional industry rates with our 190 rates was and is totally untrue. In fact, NWA rates of pay for the 190 are higher than the other airlines flying the 190 right now. So if anyone is "undercutting regional rates" as turbo claims, start bashing Jet Blue, Republic and US Airways as they have pay rates BELOW NWA for the 190.

 

[TurboAWD]

What is your point exactly, that rates negotiated under bk are poor but still better than rates negotiated by several regionals when times were fatter? You also fail to quantify the benefit of getting the airplanes that will be around for a longer time(190's) flown by mainline.

My point is that there are regional pilots flying much smaller equipment for more money that NWA pilots will make to fly the EMB190. Which is truely sad. I really don't know where to go in this industry now. FedEx/UPS/SWA seem to be the only places to make enough to live on by year two.

Turbo

 

[captain dad]

ALPA is a joke. Contracts, layoffs, buyouts of cheaper labor...the list never ends. The red tail is symbolic of the bleeding A$$E$. You are only lucky if you're senior.

Nothing New.uke:

 

[Fly4hire]

Most of which is company stock, which is normal practice in business.

Substitute most of which is in young boys, which is normal for pedophiles.

And about as morally reprehensible.