Northwest to create a new regional airline

[JoeMerchant]

HERE:

"8. ALPA’s N Star Proposal

On October 29, ALPA proposed a structure for Northwest to operate a projected replacement fleet of aircraft in the 60-100 seat range in response to the Company’s Newco proposal. ALPA proposed that Northwest establish a new division, known as “N Star,” that would operate under a separate letter of agreement between Northwest and ALPA with different terms and conditions of employment from the basic CBA. Northwest’s current short haul DC-9 operations, largely between smaller heartland cities, is a large and core portion of Northwest’s system. ALPA’s proposal sought to retain such operations in Northwest. This is unlike the situation for other mainline carriers who have not traditionally done this flying because they did not have the equipment or the relevant geographical location for their hubs.
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N Star would operate all 77-100 seat aircraft carrying the Northwest code except as provided in Section 1 of the CBA or in the letters of agreement concerning the Company’s
code sharing relationships with Continental and Delta. ALPA proposed that the pilot labor costs of the N Star division be set no less than the average pilot cost of the industry contracts covering comparable equipment. In proposing specific terms and conditions for the N Star operation, ALPA compared the US Airways MidAtlantic Airlines37 Embraer 190 operation and the 70 to 86 regional airline average. A binding arbitration process would resolve the terms for the succeeding N Star letter of agreement absent a consensual agreement. N Star would be initially staffed by bid from Northwest’s mainline operation, new hires and by recalling furloughed Northwest pilots. Thereafter, open positions would be filled by a “flow-up” arrangement permitting pilots and Northwest Airlink carriers Messaba, Pinnacle and Champion to bid for positions. There would be a single seniority list and a single pilot contract for N Star and mainline operations, permitting furloughed Northwest pilots to displace junior N Star pilots "

So you put new hires ahead of Mesaba, Pinnacle, and Champion pilots. Is that Duane's idea of "brand scope"? Way to take care of your "family". At least you could have spelled Mesaba right.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I will Sympathy strike for NWA if anyone else will. Just waiting for the call from ALPA. (Pinnacle FO)

Before you get too chummy with your fellow redtail pilots, look at the proposal again. They want new hires to go ahead of you in the "flow through" scheme. Mighty nice of them huh? Keep drinking that "brand scope" kool aid - must be strong stuff.

 

[FCPhotography]

You are way off. I am sticking up for their level of standards which are much higher than ASA's. Aren't you getting ready to be a little too busy to worry about other operations right now.

I don't want to stay in this profesion if we will never get compensated more than a 50 seat captain. If that is the case, I am out now.

In response to your post, if the new hires are furloughed Delta, furloughed TWA, furloughed USAirways, furloughed SunCountry, furloughed American then I don't have a problem with them going in front of me. They have earned it a lot more than I have. I do have a problem with a Pinnacle 400 hour new hire upgrading in 2-1/2 years and flying that 100 seater around for $50 bucks an hour. If it was up to me ALPA would have a set pay scale across the board per seat and aircraft. Simple as that. But, since that is not the case I have no idea what to expect.

I just know that flying 50 seats around for $60,000 a year is not what I want to do for another 30 years. That is why I would not think twice about striking.

 

[FCPhotography]

I forgot to say. Good luck with everything at ASA. Looks like you guys are in a tough boat right now.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

So you put new hires ahead of Mesaba, Pinnacle, and Champion pilots. Is that Duane's idea of "brand scope"? Way to take care of your "family". At least you could have spelled Mesaba right.

As far as i know, they were planning on using the furloughed pilots out of XJ as the new hires. Thats just a rumor though.

 

[Detroitpilot22]

As far as i know, they were planning on using the furloughed pilots out of XJ as the new hires. Thats just a rumor though.

Oh, Ok, so they are going to take the people who got furloughed from mesaba, all of which who were with the company for no more than 4 or 5 months, and just move them ahead of NWA guys?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, thats funny.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Oh, Ok, so they are going to take the people who got furloughed from mesaba, all of which who were with the company for no more than 4 or 5 months, and just move them ahead of NWA guys?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, thats funny.

They aren't moving them ahead of anybody. Yes, pilots can move right from a flight instructor position into the ERJ190, they are doing it elsewhere. This is based on what the size of NewCo will be. NWA pilots will flow back to the top of the list, while XJ/9E will flow to the bottom of the list. Most of the guys getting furloughed out of NWA are not going to go back to being an FO at NewCo, they have the option to take a furlough until they can hold the mainline again. This will create a need for additional staffing; initially there we be no flow through to protect the jobs at our regional partners.

 

[surplus1]

...... initially there we be no flow through to protect the jobs at our regional partners.

That's really humorous.."protect the jobs of your regional partners"...wow, what a nice gesture.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

That's really humorous.."protect the jobs of your regional partners"...wow, what a nice gesture.

Actually, we could give the airplanes to them and flow back and put them all on the street. How about that?

 

[xjhawk]

well, i for one hope our (XJ) and your (NWA) MEC's are talking to one another. I for one will not work for what XJ's management has proposed, as a matter of fact, i will not work for anything less than what our current contract calls for. Our currnet rates are still lower than Comairs. I support whatever you Guys and Gals do over at NWA to protect your jobs. Most of us at XJ beleive just that, it is your jobs, and any bone you throw us, we are willing to participate. I alwasy beleive that there was some sort of family scope, now i sort of beleive there might not be a career (which can afford me to even buy a 100,000 dollar home) here at Mesaba, or even something waiting for me at mainline, since i have no PIC time and will not get any now that XJ is in a decline.....best wishes to you all, hope some sort of good deal for all pilots is reached.

 

[surplus1]

Actually, we could give the airplanes to them and flow back and put them all on the street. How about that?

If they're stupid enough to agree to that then I guess you could do anything and apparently that's what you're counting on; stupidity on their part. Maybe they'll give it to you.

Since I'm an outsider it doesn't matter what I think but if it were my decision I would not give you the time of day. I would just give you back what you've given them and tell you where to put your flow through/flow back. Some of them are apparently happy with "bones". In my book, bones are for dogs.

Your "offer" is a sucker punch and I hope they'll see it for what it is.

 

[fly4ever]

surplus1,

I have tried to see this from both directions but a lot of us do see it for what it is - a bad deal. There has never been a flow through at any airline that has helped the regional pilot. Very few have ever seen the benefit and most have felt the effects of the "flowback". I won't support a deal that does not provide fences for the regional pilots. The XJ pilot list is made up of people hired as far back as 1988. Seniority should count for something at our level too. If ALPA trys to force this on us and it puts the pilots of XJ out of work - screw them.

I would rather lose my job walking a picket line. It won't help most of us waiting around for a "possible job" at NewCo or mainline or whatever.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Before you get too chummy with your fellow redtail pilots, look at the proposal again. They want new hires to go ahead of you in the "flow through" scheme. Mighty nice of them huh? Keep drinking that "brand scope" kool aid - must be strong stuff.

Somebody needs a hug!

The proposal is not to merge seniority lists. It's to establish a flow-through. Yes, new hires would get to the mainline before some Airlink pilots would flow-up.

That's not a slight...it's a staffing reality. Years ago, when NWA tried to establish a flow-through with Mesaba, both MECs realized the needs of the mainline i(month-to-month) in terms of numbers might exceed the number of pilots Mesaba could afford to lose. An agreement on the percentage of Mesaba pilots that would be included in every NWA class was reached between both MECs.

The proposal you've read is a bullet-point concept. The specific terms are subject to negotiation.

The "kool-aid" here is the RJDC spew you're pumping out.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

surplus1,

I have tried to see this from both directions but a lot of us do see it for what it is - a bad deal. There has never been a flow through at any airline that has helped the regional pilot. Very few have ever seen the benefit and most have felt the effects of the "flowback". I won't support a deal that does not provide fences for the regional pilots. The XJ pilot list is made up of people hired as far back as 1988. Seniority should count for something at our level too. If ALPA trys to force this on us and it puts the pilots of XJ out of work - screw them.

I would rather lose my job walking a picket line. It won't help most of us waiting around for a "possible job" at NewCo or mainline or whatever.

The idea allows you to bid up to a NewCo position if you want it. You are not forced to go from a XJ/9E captain to a newco FO. We fully expect that only the junior regional guys will go to NewCo and make lower 20k salaries. If an open position is not filled by an XJ/9E pilot we will hire from the street. This allows the capatians at both companies to retain their positions and not be force out or back to square one salary.

In my opinion, you we see the junior guys flow up to NewCo as FO's and the Captains will likely jump ship to better airlines. I don't believe you will see any NWA furloughs as NewCo FO's, all of the ones i've talked to will take the furlough until they can hold captain. So in other words if you choose to go to newco, upgrade time to captain/mainline will probably be around 5-10 years.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

This will create a need for additional staffing; initially there we be no flow through to protect the jobs at our regional partners.

What are you talking about? You agreed with NWA management to let a 3rd Airlink in last year.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

What are you talking about? You agreed with NWA management to let a 3rd Airlink in last year.

We are talking about bidding on flying that is against the scope contract.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

We are talking about bidding on flying that is against the scope contract.

I think that's what they call "talking out of both sides of your mouth".