YourPilotFriend
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NORTHWEST PILOTS: Why take this T.A.?
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Mr Hat
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Because scope clauses have worked so well in the past. Remember USair, No RJ's period.....How many do they have working at the feeders now (prior to their recent agreement)? The point here is that they are bitting the bullet to fly the airplanes at regional rates for now AT NWA.....If they don't do this then those pilots will still end up flying these airplanes at those rates but for some new company. I'm telling you, securing that flying now will make the future much better.
The reason we are in the boat we are in now is because of the RJ's being flown at the regionals......If airlines are allowed to further degrade things by allowing larger equipment at the regionals, the pilots flying for the majors will lose more money. I am an RJ pilot, But I know that my standing bid would be 777CA on down to E145CA instead of just E145CA if ALPA didn't make this mistake 10 years ago. Most of the furloughed guys wouldn't be furloughed either! They'd still be building seniority at their company. Rates wouldn't have fallen because RJ pay would have been in line with the majors from the beginning. Now the 50 seat market is shrinking and we are going to make the same mistake? I mean really, who wants to fly a training jet anyway, right? Quit blaming the LCCs, ALPA made this mistake all by itself well before Jetblue even existed.
NWA ALPA has the right idea with this thing. The past can't be changed but we can learn from past mistakes.
YourPilotFriend
YourPilotFriend
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Council 20 Chairman’s Perspective:
I hope all NWA pilots take the time to educate
themselves on the March 3, 2006, TA. This agreement
may, without exaggeration, be the most important
contract ratification for pilots in the history of
Northwest Airlines. Our pilot membership will be
making the final decision. Although the MEC has
decided to send this TA to the membership for
ratification, the MEC has deferred a vote
recommendation until the upcoming MEC meeting.
This tentative agreement is controversial because it
will drastically degrade the value of our careers as Northwest pilots.
Negotiations were conducted under duress, during the 1113c process,
with the threat of imposed terms of employment. Our defined benefit
plan (DBP) has been frozen, and we were negotiating for a follow-on
contribution plan without knowing whether we will be able to prevent
termination of our DBP. (We are still waiting on pension relief
legislation.) Management demanded an additional
$358M/year in cost reductions, with the threat of
liquidation if we did not comply. Managements at
other legacy carriers recently in Chapter 11 (US
Airways and UAL) have been able to negotiate deep
cost reductions from their pilots, as well as other
labor groups. In all cases, the pilots have been
burdened with substantially disproportionate
concessions when compared to other labor groups and
management. Both US Airways and UAL pilots have had
their DBPs terminated.
The Northwest management plan of “last man standing”
failed. Management was unable to negotiate voluntary concessions from
all labor groups, fares remained depressed, and fuel costs increased
substantially. NWA filed for Chapter 11 and joined the ranks
(including DAL) of those no longer standing. As is too often the case,
those who are responsible for bad decisions are not held accountable.
Those with no influence on those decisions are expected to concede a
substantial portion of their career value to cover the incompetence
and bailout of a management team that is paid very well to make much
better decisions. Unfortunately, the justification for labor’s making
(what would otherwise be very
foolish) concessions is to save the airline and save
our jobs. We are essentially placing a very high
value on a greatly devalued career.
The greatest travesty, in my opinion, is the time we
have invested in what has become a bad investment.
Time can never be recovered. Some of us have
invested more than others. Some will cut their
losses and find a better, more rewarding career.
(For those pilots who can, you owe it to yourself
and your family to do so.) The effect of this TA is
not just the six to eight years we will be exposed
to the terms, but it is career-altering for most
pilots who are not in their final years at NWA. You
will be better off finding something that pays more,
has better benefits (including retirement), and
affords your family a better quality of life. There
are MANY alternative careers that will likely be
more rewarding. Taxi drivers, bus drivers, teachers,
postal workers, and even some secretaries make more
than many airline pilots. Often pilots have advanced
degrees and experience in other more rewarding
professions. If a career in commercial aviation is
not going to provide a respectable standard of
living, acceptable work rules, and a retirement that
will support us after retirement, it is time to take
a stand, or move on to something better. This TA
seems to protect pilot jobs, but in the process we
seem to have simply traded good jobs for bad (and
even more so for the more junior pilots). While we
have provided alternative employment (with a
subsidiary or another carrier) for our most junior
pilots, we may have facilitated their furlough.
There are times when job security (and our scope)
can be a ball and chain. So the good news may be
that our furloughed pilots will have pilot jobs
available, but the bad news is the jobs will likely
not be worth having for many of those pilots.
I suppose a fair question is what are your
expectations of an airline career, and how has that
been altered by the Chapter 11 process? We all knew
we would be making substantial concessions, but what
is necessary, and how much is enough? Should we
expect a better TA? How much risk are we willing to
take to achieve our level of expectations? If we
reach our maximum level of risk tolerance, we simply
have to reduce our expectations to match that
tolerance. In my opinion, that is what will
determine how most pilots will vote on this TA. It
should be no surprise to anyone that the level of
risk pilots are willing to take may depend on the
magnitude of their investment. Those with the most
years invested, may be more inclined to limit their
risk and accept the TA as their new level of
expectation. Those with fewer years invested, may be
more inclined to risk more rather than accept a
lower level of expectation that will have a much
greater detriment to their career. Under the best of conditions, it
could easily take another 20-plus years to recover from this TA. I
don’t think anyone expects to fully recover in one contract,
regardless of the state of the airline. Although we were told that $358M was enough, it was
not. If we were to get credit for our
revenue-enhancing concessions, the total value of
this TA would exceed $500M. If given credit for the
soft money, or even a substantial part of it, we
would not have had to concede the deep pay cuts, we
would not have had to concede the deep degradation
of work rules, we could have had better benefits at
less cost, and we could have had a better retirement contribution. We
paid for our 5 percent retirement contribution during Chapter 11 by
permitting NWA to charge our DBP with any excess PBGC insurance
premiums. Our revenue-enhancing concessions supposedly paid for our
future pay increases, which do little to mitigate even basic cost of
living increases. So, as to the question of whether or not we paid too
much for an agreement, the answer is clearly?YES. As to whether of not
we should expect a better TA, one with fewer concessions, the answer
is again?YES. And so what are the risks of the membership voting down
this TA?
If the TA is rejected, the judge may allow NWA to
impose; he may specify the terms; he may advocate an extension (with
negotiations); and he may even reject the 1113c petition. Until the
judge rules, NWA could impose terms without or before the judge’s
decision, but the judge does have to rule on their 1113c petition. In
any case, NWA management will most likely need a consensual agreement
from all labor groups before they can get exit financing. So what is
the better choice, taking the terms of the
(long-term) TA, or taking the risk of improving the
TA in an effort to better match (higher) career
expectations? I am sure you will hear about all of
the worst-case scenarios of imposed terms, and those
are calculated risks. If NWA needs a consensual
agreement to exit Chapter 11, imposed terms are a
short-term problem. We have reserved our right to
all legal self-help options, and NWA has indicated
they will seek an injunction to stop a strike. The
outcome of that challenge and counter-challenge
could take days, weeks, or months. It is in both our
and management’s best interest to achieve a mutually
acceptable agreement. The pilot membership will have
to decide what is acceptable. I do not find this TA
to be acceptable.
Although there was enough votes to have stopped this
TA at the MEC, most on the MEC wanted the TA to go
to the membership for a final decision. The
compromise was to pass a resolution that ensured the
TA would go to the pilots, but the MEC would debate
and decide on a vote recommendation at the upcoming
MEC meeting. We made it clear that we expected full
contract language to be completed for our review and available to all
pilots before road shows and/or membership ratification.
Unfortunately, the MEC chairman published his vote recommendation
(yes) in Ziplines before the MEC position had been
determined. The MEC chairman is obligated to
represent the view, position, and (policy) of the
MEC. Contrary to the Ziplines, the differences among
the MEC on the TA are well known. In any case, the
MEC vote recommendation will be addressed (and
determined) by the MEC next week. We have conceded
too much and compromised the quality of our careers
at Northwest beyond what was necessary to ensure a
successful airline restructuring. My recommendation
to the Council 20 pilots and to the MEC is a “no”
vote.
The MEC Negotiating Committee has just distributed
the latest Across the Table (ATT). Please take the
time to review the ATT; it can be downloaded (in
three parts) from the http://www.nwaalpa.org website. The
level of concessions and cost to our career is
obvious.
We (ALPA) need to find a better (and much more
effective) way to protect pilots and our careers. It
should be apparent to all; we have, to a large
degree, failed miserably in that respect in the
Chapter 11 environment. It has been a perfect storm,
and we have been challenged by limited options and
limited leverage, but, in my opinion, we have
assumed that we have no other recourse; we have
assumed the role of victims. We can do better.
Fraternally,
I hope all NWA pilots take the time to educate
themselves on the March 3, 2006, TA. This agreement
may, without exaggeration, be the most important
contract ratification for pilots in the history of
Northwest Airlines. Our pilot membership will be
making the final decision. Although the MEC has
decided to send this TA to the membership for
ratification, the MEC has deferred a vote
recommendation until the upcoming MEC meeting.
This tentative agreement is controversial because it
will drastically degrade the value of our careers as Northwest pilots.
Negotiations were conducted under duress, during the 1113c process,
with the threat of imposed terms of employment. Our defined benefit
plan (DBP) has been frozen, and we were negotiating for a follow-on
contribution plan without knowing whether we will be able to prevent
termination of our DBP. (We are still waiting on pension relief
legislation.) Management demanded an additional
$358M/year in cost reductions, with the threat of
liquidation if we did not comply. Managements at
other legacy carriers recently in Chapter 11 (US
Airways and UAL) have been able to negotiate deep
cost reductions from their pilots, as well as other
labor groups. In all cases, the pilots have been
burdened with substantially disproportionate
concessions when compared to other labor groups and
management. Both US Airways and UAL pilots have had
their DBPs terminated.
The Northwest management plan of “last man standing”
failed. Management was unable to negotiate voluntary concessions from
all labor groups, fares remained depressed, and fuel costs increased
substantially. NWA filed for Chapter 11 and joined the ranks
(including DAL) of those no longer standing. As is too often the case,
those who are responsible for bad decisions are not held accountable.
Those with no influence on those decisions are expected to concede a
substantial portion of their career value to cover the incompetence
and bailout of a management team that is paid very well to make much
better decisions. Unfortunately, the justification for labor’s making
(what would otherwise be very
foolish) concessions is to save the airline and save
our jobs. We are essentially placing a very high
value on a greatly devalued career.
The greatest travesty, in my opinion, is the time we
have invested in what has become a bad investment.
Time can never be recovered. Some of us have
invested more than others. Some will cut their
losses and find a better, more rewarding career.
(For those pilots who can, you owe it to yourself
and your family to do so.) The effect of this TA is
not just the six to eight years we will be exposed
to the terms, but it is career-altering for most
pilots who are not in their final years at NWA. You
will be better off finding something that pays more,
has better benefits (including retirement), and
affords your family a better quality of life. There
are MANY alternative careers that will likely be
more rewarding. Taxi drivers, bus drivers, teachers,
postal workers, and even some secretaries make more
than many airline pilots. Often pilots have advanced
degrees and experience in other more rewarding
professions. If a career in commercial aviation is
not going to provide a respectable standard of
living, acceptable work rules, and a retirement that
will support us after retirement, it is time to take
a stand, or move on to something better. This TA
seems to protect pilot jobs, but in the process we
seem to have simply traded good jobs for bad (and
even more so for the more junior pilots). While we
have provided alternative employment (with a
subsidiary or another carrier) for our most junior
pilots, we may have facilitated their furlough.
There are times when job security (and our scope)
can be a ball and chain. So the good news may be
that our furloughed pilots will have pilot jobs
available, but the bad news is the jobs will likely
not be worth having for many of those pilots.
I suppose a fair question is what are your
expectations of an airline career, and how has that
been altered by the Chapter 11 process? We all knew
we would be making substantial concessions, but what
is necessary, and how much is enough? Should we
expect a better TA? How much risk are we willing to
take to achieve our level of expectations? If we
reach our maximum level of risk tolerance, we simply
have to reduce our expectations to match that
tolerance. In my opinion, that is what will
determine how most pilots will vote on this TA. It
should be no surprise to anyone that the level of
risk pilots are willing to take may depend on the
magnitude of their investment. Those with the most
years invested, may be more inclined to limit their
risk and accept the TA as their new level of
expectation. Those with fewer years invested, may be
more inclined to risk more rather than accept a
lower level of expectation that will have a much
greater detriment to their career. Under the best of conditions, it
could easily take another 20-plus years to recover from this TA. I
don’t think anyone expects to fully recover in one contract,
regardless of the state of the airline. Although we were told that $358M was enough, it was
not. If we were to get credit for our
revenue-enhancing concessions, the total value of
this TA would exceed $500M. If given credit for the
soft money, or even a substantial part of it, we
would not have had to concede the deep pay cuts, we
would not have had to concede the deep degradation
of work rules, we could have had better benefits at
less cost, and we could have had a better retirement contribution. We
paid for our 5 percent retirement contribution during Chapter 11 by
permitting NWA to charge our DBP with any excess PBGC insurance
premiums. Our revenue-enhancing concessions supposedly paid for our
future pay increases, which do little to mitigate even basic cost of
living increases. So, as to the question of whether or not we paid too
much for an agreement, the answer is clearly?YES. As to whether of not
we should expect a better TA, one with fewer concessions, the answer
is again?YES. And so what are the risks of the membership voting down
this TA?
If the TA is rejected, the judge may allow NWA to
impose; he may specify the terms; he may advocate an extension (with
negotiations); and he may even reject the 1113c petition. Until the
judge rules, NWA could impose terms without or before the judge’s
decision, but the judge does have to rule on their 1113c petition. In
any case, NWA management will most likely need a consensual agreement
from all labor groups before they can get exit financing. So what is
the better choice, taking the terms of the
(long-term) TA, or taking the risk of improving the
TA in an effort to better match (higher) career
expectations? I am sure you will hear about all of
the worst-case scenarios of imposed terms, and those
are calculated risks. If NWA needs a consensual
agreement to exit Chapter 11, imposed terms are a
short-term problem. We have reserved our right to
all legal self-help options, and NWA has indicated
they will seek an injunction to stop a strike. The
outcome of that challenge and counter-challenge
could take days, weeks, or months. It is in both our
and management’s best interest to achieve a mutually
acceptable agreement. The pilot membership will have
to decide what is acceptable. I do not find this TA
to be acceptable.
Although there was enough votes to have stopped this
TA at the MEC, most on the MEC wanted the TA to go
to the membership for a final decision. The
compromise was to pass a resolution that ensured the
TA would go to the pilots, but the MEC would debate
and decide on a vote recommendation at the upcoming
MEC meeting. We made it clear that we expected full
contract language to be completed for our review and available to all
pilots before road shows and/or membership ratification.
Unfortunately, the MEC chairman published his vote recommendation
(yes) in Ziplines before the MEC position had been
determined. The MEC chairman is obligated to
represent the view, position, and (policy) of the
MEC. Contrary to the Ziplines, the differences among
the MEC on the TA are well known. In any case, the
MEC vote recommendation will be addressed (and
determined) by the MEC next week. We have conceded
too much and compromised the quality of our careers
at Northwest beyond what was necessary to ensure a
successful airline restructuring. My recommendation
to the Council 20 pilots and to the MEC is a “no”
vote.
The MEC Negotiating Committee has just distributed
the latest Across the Table (ATT). Please take the
time to review the ATT; it can be downloaded (in
three parts) from the http://www.nwaalpa.org website. The
level of concessions and cost to our career is
obvious.
We (ALPA) need to find a better (and much more
effective) way to protect pilots and our careers. It
should be apparent to all; we have, to a large
degree, failed miserably in that respect in the
Chapter 11 environment. It has been a perfect storm,
and we have been challenged by limited options and
limited leverage, but, in my opinion, we have
assumed that we have no other recourse; we have
assumed the role of victims. We can do better.
Fraternally,
regionaltard
seat lock
- Joined
- May 22, 2005
- Posts
- 951
Mr Hat said:
How can allowing NW to establish an alter ego with terms of employment vastly different from those at mainline possibly be considered "learning from past mistakes?" This steaming pile of dung might temporarily slow our industry's rate of decline, but it will most assuredly not "make the future much better."
With the standard disclaimer that goes with a pilot not currently staring career oblivion in the face telling another pilot group to go out there and give 'em hell, until someone finally digs in and says "enough is enough," it will never be enough. Lear70's statement:
"So, basically, under your theory of "capture the flying now, capture pay and QOL later", these guys and gals will NEVER see an increase in their equivalent take-home pay in terms of today's dollars."
is the cold, hard truth.
The airline industry: manufacturers, leasing companies, vendors of the various and sundry consumables (fuel for instance) is actually in pretty decent shape, especially when compared to the tens of thousands of small corporations that are our families. The airlines themselves get all the press, but in the big picture they're just the funnel that gathers in the consumers' cash. The sad fact of the matter is that until such time as the union representing pilots does as good a job as the de facto unions representing airframes, leasing agreements, fuel contracts etc., we will continue to be the weakest link in the chain and these other interests will continue to work together to exploit our victim mentality.
Last edited:
furloughed dude
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2003
- Posts
- 197
You think they are going to fly to China in a CRJ? I am not a koolaid drinker by any means, but under the circumstances, it is probably about as good as they could do. They can ratify it or liquidate, pretty much that simple. Most jobs will remain, alot (Dc-9 and some airbus) will go the way of the RJ. My guess is that the NWA mainline will end up around 3,000 - 3,500 jobs.
I enjoy Ray Miller's bantor, and agree with him most of the time. He can say whatever he wants, but in the end, he will probably vote for the TA like a huge majority of the top 2/3 of the seniority list.
No doubt about it, it is a $hit sandwich. Steenland is no doubt loving life now. That a$$hole will get these huge concessions and then take his bonuses and move on to the next company to destroy..
I enjoy Ray Miller's bantor, and agree with him most of the time. He can say whatever he wants, but in the end, he will probably vote for the TA like a huge majority of the top 2/3 of the seniority list.
No doubt about it, it is a $hit sandwich. Steenland is no doubt loving life now. That a$$hole will get these huge concessions and then take his bonuses and move on to the next company to destroy..
Lear70 said:
Of course you are willing to walk. You have possibly the worst regional job in the history of the airlines.
Lear70 said:
When will YOU decide "enough is enough"?
Mid-thirties and still at Pinnacle?
Why are you still there with the other more lucrative airline opportunities available at this very moment?
You remind me of Chris Farley in Black Sheep when he is playing football with the 13 year olds.
Why don't you quit worrying about mainline and put your money where YOUR MOUTH is? Last I checked it wasn't too hard to get a charter job.
What's YOUR excuse for "lowering the bar"?
redflyer65
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2004
- Posts
- 4,456
Furloughed, What kind of crack are you smoking. The pensions are completely gone. Count on it. Management is just waiting for the ink to dry on this agreement.
The flying that will be 'saved', will be sold to the highest bidder within a couple of years. Count on it. How would you like to be the MidAtlantic guys that where offered a position at Chatauqua as a First year FO?
I can't figure out why others haven't pointed to this new certificate as a complete sham. It's because its so easy to sell off.
Its time for the pilot group to call Steenlands bluff. There is absolutely no reason to fly these aircraft at any other certificate other than Northwest. Not SJet. Not Newco. Not Pinnacle. Not Mesaba.
Keep the jobs on property. This TA is about as bad as it gets. They aren't saving ANYTHING!
The flying that will be 'saved', will be sold to the highest bidder within a couple of years. Count on it. How would you like to be the MidAtlantic guys that where offered a position at Chatauqua as a First year FO?
I can't figure out why others haven't pointed to this new certificate as a complete sham. It's because its so easy to sell off.
Its time for the pilot group to call Steenlands bluff. There is absolutely no reason to fly these aircraft at any other certificate other than Northwest. Not SJet. Not Newco. Not Pinnacle. Not Mesaba.
Keep the jobs on property. This TA is about as bad as it gets. They aren't saving ANYTHING!
YourPilotFriend
YourPilotFriend
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YourPilotFriend
YourPilotFriend
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Capi_Cafre'
Say...what...again!
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- Posts
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XJohXJ
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2006
- Posts
- 972
YourPilotFriend said:
You've got that right!!! There is no statement more obnoxious and idiotic than the a**holes who go around crying "if your job is so bad, why don't you just quit?"
Yeah, right, no sh*t man, thanks for the suggestion. If you're 20 and single, that might work. Anyone a little older, or with a family, needs a steady check, and, more importantly, health care for their family. In case you don't know, health care is NOT PORTABLE. COBRA coverage for a family costs a lot more than a typical monthly mortgage payment.
Home Depot pays more, but you don't start out right away on their health plan.
People aren't quitting because they CAN'T.
YourPilotFriend said:
Yep. Furloughed from NW Sept 2002.
Not sure if I'm going back but I am tired of pilots from OTHER AIRLINES telling NW guys what we should do, especially with the tone Lear 70 demonstrates with his posts.
If the regional guys want this profession to get better, they should all walk off their jobs right now.
redflyer65
Well-known member
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- Jan 1, 2004
- Posts
- 4,456
YourPilotFriend
YourPilotFriend
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redflyer65
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2004
- Posts
- 4,456
YourFriend, Because its a trend it should be voted for? I don't quite understand that logic. Fly the planes under the current certificate at the same rates that are in the TA. Don't allow Steenland to sell it off for the big bonus that he will take.
The Northwest pilots need to learn from history, not repeat it.
The Northwest pilots need to learn from history, not repeat it.
okcplt said:
Oh, an illegal job action...good idea, that will work, bush will back us up...
Here's the deal, and it not only answers why regional pilots have a hard time raising the bar (although they were raising it Horizon, Comair, ExpressJet, etc), but also why NWA pilots should vote no.
MAINLINE IS THE ONLY ONE WITH ANY REAL POWER!!!
PNCL decides they aren't going to play ball on the current negotiations? No problem, move the airplanes.
ExpressJet not going to take concesions? No problem, just move the airplanes.
Now, if those jobs were at mainline, then they couldn't be moved. Or, if at the very least the Majors were limited to one regional carrier each, there would be some power.
That is why the TA should be voted down. I didn't expect you guys to hold the scope where it was at, given the industry std. However, I was hoping that it wouldn't let anything bigger than a CRJ-700 go.
And that SJ section is a joke. Only a token nod to preventing another MDA.
Vote No and Vote Often, Please.
81Horse
Well-known member
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- Nov 15, 2005
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- 926
Lear70
JAFFO
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- Posts
- 7,487
Still doing it. Permanently furloughed out of the Captain's seat of the 727 to the street just prior to 9/11. Hired directly into the CA's seat of the CRJ. Had the choice between here at PCL or NetJets (why oh why didn't I take that BLUE pill?), chose here because I had already done fractional and wanted to stay on a track to the majors. Boy was I wrong.furloughed dude said:
Toads like me working for regional rates? We're in Section 6 negotiations, my motto is STFD. I have enough saved up for 6 months of strike fund and a family commercial real estate business to fall back on. My goal was rates about 5% HIGHER than the Northwest T/A for an aircraft half again larger than the CRJ.
None of that is the point, but nice try at thread hijack. The POINT is that Northwest pilots seem hell-bent on signing a T.A. that is DIRECTLY OPPOSITE of what the Negotiating Committee asked for a strike vote to prevent, not to mention that it sells 1/4 of their junior pilots down into an RJ (along with YOU furloughed dude).
I'd expect you to be one of the loudest opponents, given that you won't see mainline again for about another DECADE if this is signed.
No argument there.
okcplt, I believe you're a furloughed NWA pilot about as much as I believe Steenland is going to leave the pensions alone after the T.A. is signed. Your sophomoric views of my position are laughable.
Mid-30's and yes, making $75k a year with a wife and two kids. Of COURSE I can make my phone ring with that phone call from FedEx, UPS, AirTran, or Southwest. I'll just MAKE it happen...
You're a CFI, I wouldn't expect you to understand about lateral moves, furloughs, company closures, unemployment lines, and the networking required to secure a job at a major in these times.
Telling people if they don't like it, just quit is rediculous.
My stance is simply that I believe the Northwest MEC caved and that NWA management had a LOT more room to give, if it went down to a work stoppage. I'm trying to understand WHY a Northwest pilot would see this T.A. as any kind of long-term acceptable stance unless, of course, you're that mid- to high-level seniority that won't be seriously affected.
redflyer65
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81Horse
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redflyer65 said:
Well, thanks -- but the resolve, in this case, would be The Spouse's; my resolve has been tested elsewhere, elsetime. Let's just say I'm very interested in how it all plays out at NWA.
Q: You're droning along in cruise, and suddenly -- BAM! -- the cockpit door is breached, and you're faced with three terrifying intruders: Bin Laden, Sadaam, and Steenland. You're packing heat, but ... you've only got two bullets. What do you do?
A: Shoot Steenland ... twice.
<Attn: Homeland Security. The above is a joke -- that's right -- a JOKE! While it may represent our deepest, most heartfelt desire, it in no way represents our actual intentions. So, just walk on by. Oh, and next time? Get a WARRANT.>
There might be another opton here.
Sorry to butt in here. I'm not NWA affiliated but I want to add something. Everybody is assuming that there are only 2 options here: 1.) Accept the TA 2.) reject the TA, the judge throws out the contract and the union goes on strike resulting in the end of NWA. I don't see it that way, I think that there is another likely outcome. If the TA gets rejected there is the possibility that the judge just sends the parties back for another try. I don't think that the judge or the company wants to be the one to force a potential strike. I would guess that you will continue to negotiate and make some improvements. The creditors and the company need a deal from the pilots and I would bet that you get a second bite at the apple.
Don't buy the first deal that is offered. The company has it's temporary cut for now so you have some time to go back to the table. It's a tough environment and your company is very sick so you won't end up with a great deal but you may end up with a better deal if you go back to the table and try for a little more. I would at least be sure to get your 70+ seat flying on your main certificate with IRON CLAD language that guarantees that flying for your people on your certificate. I don't think the company will risk a liquidation over this issue if the pay rates and work rules make the SJ's economically feasable so you can get financing for the new birds. From what I can see the language regarding the placement of the new small jets seems pretty unclear. Good luck to you all.
Sorry to butt in here. I'm not NWA affiliated but I want to add something. Everybody is assuming that there are only 2 options here: 1.) Accept the TA 2.) reject the TA, the judge throws out the contract and the union goes on strike resulting in the end of NWA. I don't see it that way, I think that there is another likely outcome. If the TA gets rejected there is the possibility that the judge just sends the parties back for another try. I don't think that the judge or the company wants to be the one to force a potential strike. I would guess that you will continue to negotiate and make some improvements. The creditors and the company need a deal from the pilots and I would bet that you get a second bite at the apple.
Don't buy the first deal that is offered. The company has it's temporary cut for now so you have some time to go back to the table. It's a tough environment and your company is very sick so you won't end up with a great deal but you may end up with a better deal if you go back to the table and try for a little more. I would at least be sure to get your 70+ seat flying on your main certificate with IRON CLAD language that guarantees that flying for your people on your certificate. I don't think the company will risk a liquidation over this issue if the pay rates and work rules make the SJ's economically feasable so you can get financing for the new birds. From what I can see the language regarding the placement of the new small jets seems pretty unclear. Good luck to you all.
320AV8R
DUMP ALPA
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2003
- Posts
- 505
There are many things that are mystifying about this whole process. 
NWA ALPA said SCOPE was the highest priority….. we took a strike vote to that effect. Now, we get this TA that doesn’t seem to reflect our “SCOPE priority”, based on the terms presented thus far.
Also, Mgmt asked for $358m, & it seems this TA is valued around $400 - $500m. Need more details to figure this out.
The Pension ? I would not be in the least bit surprised to see that “conveniently vaporized”, faster that you can say PBGC minimum guarantee.
Uncle Neal did the SJET “smoke & mirrors snake trick” at USAir. Irregardless of the contract language, Cohen will find a loophole to suit his agenda. Or, he’ll blatantly violate the contract & have ALPA spend 3 years litigating it.
The TA is ugly. Somehow, though, I’m not surprised. If it gets rejected, the legal precedent for moving forward is very unclear. NWA mgmt is ruthless; the possibility of scoring a "better" deal is questionable at best.
One thing is for sure….. this is no longer a career, it’s a job.
320AV8R
NWA ALPA said SCOPE was the highest priority….. we took a strike vote to that effect. Now, we get this TA that doesn’t seem to reflect our “SCOPE priority”, based on the terms presented thus far.
Also, Mgmt asked for $358m, & it seems this TA is valued around $400 - $500m. Need more details to figure this out.
The Pension ? I would not be in the least bit surprised to see that “conveniently vaporized”, faster that you can say PBGC minimum guarantee.
Uncle Neal did the SJET “smoke & mirrors snake trick” at USAir. Irregardless of the contract language, Cohen will find a loophole to suit his agenda. Or, he’ll blatantly violate the contract & have ALPA spend 3 years litigating it.
The TA is ugly. Somehow, though, I’m not surprised. If it gets rejected, the legal precedent for moving forward is very unclear. NWA mgmt is ruthless; the possibility of scoring a "better" deal is questionable at best.
One thing is for sure….. this is no longer a career, it’s a job.
320AV8R
Last edited:
pilotyip
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 13,629
quote:
"hasn't NWA tried raising ticket prices over the couple past years, and each time they saw an almost instant drop in resevations that forced them to rescind the ticket increase? No one else in the industry followed the ticket price increase."
Are you kidding???? Northwest is the one that refused to go along with alot of the price increases. Part of their brilliant "last man standing" strategy.
"hasn't NWA tried raising ticket prices over the couple past years, and each time they saw an almost instant drop in resevations that forced them to rescind the ticket increase? No one else in the industry followed the ticket price increase."
Are you kidding???? Northwest is the one that refused to go along with alot of the price increases. Part of their brilliant "last man standing" strategy.
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