Nordo?

[Checks]

Let me share with you what I think is correct and have you guys sharp shoot it. I understand the pilot can use emergency authority to do what he feels is required but I would like to still understand what the regs want. Where I get hang up is on the airport as the clearance limit part. I have heard that you should fly over the airport at altitude then proceed to the IAF OR just fly direct to an IAF and do as listed there. Assume you have an IFR GPS on-board.

Thanks in advance

0. Squak 7600

1. If VFR, stay VFR and Land as soon as practicable.

2. Route:
Assigned, in the absence of an assigned route then-
Vectored fix, route, or airway, in the absence of such then-
Expected route, in the absence of then,
Filed route.

3. Altitude:
Highest of MEA, Assigned, Expected for the route segement being flown.

4. Leave Clearance Limit:

Clearance Limit is an IAF=commence descent and approach as close as possible to the EFC time(if received) or ETA(keeping in mind that ATC may have updated your ETA throughout the flight, assuming you were in radar contact or gave position positions prior to going NORDO)

Clearance Limit is not an IAF=
A) Destination Airport is the Clearance Limit: Fly direct to an IAF and descend+shoot the approach at your ETA(keeping in mind that ATC may have updated your ETA throughout the flight, assuming you were in radar contact or gave position positions prior to going NORDO). Hold at IAF if arriving before your ETA.

B)Clearance Limit is a non-IAF fix: If you have an EFC then wait until the EFC time then proceed direct to an IAF and commence descent and approach as close as possible to the ETA(keeping in mind that ATC may have updated your ETA throughout the flight, assuming you were in radar contact or gave position positions prior to going NORDO)
If you dont have an EFC then after arriving at the fix proceed direct to an IAF and commence descent and approach as close as possible to the ETA(keeping in mind that ATC may have updated your ETA throughout the flight, assuming you were in radar contact or gave position positions prior to going NORDO)


I understand the pilot can use emergency authority to do what he feels is required but I would like to still understand what the regs want.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

I have heard that you should fly over the airport at altitude then proceed to the IAF OR just fly direct to an IAF and do as listed there.

When you file a flight plan, you should not file direct to the airport itself. IE: KABC -> ABCDE -> VWXYZ -> KXYZ instead of KABC -> KXYZ. The problem is if you don't specify a specific IAF, and you can tie up alot of airspace near your ending airport.

VWXYZ should be an IAF for KXYZ. This way if you lose radios, you can shoot it normally. If you get there and want something different, put in a request.

If you are GPS direct to KXYZ (as per ATC instructions), then you fly over the airport and get to pick your choice of the approaches. Don't deviate from your last plan because ATC will be assuming that is what you are up to.

 

[avbug]

A myth.

File to your destination. Fly there, and land. Period.

You don't need to overfly the airport then go back to a fix. Fly to the destination and land. If you can get to VMC before then, do so, and land. On arrival, pick and approach fix, fly the approach, and land.

Don't try to outthink the system. No radio, the proceedures are straightforward.

Fly to your destination and land the airplane.

 

[LAZYB]

Thank you Avbug

A myth.

File to your destination. Fly there, and land. Period.

You don't need to overfly the airport then go back to a fix. Fly to the destination and land. If you can get to VMC before then, do so, and land. On arrival, pick and approach fix, fly the approach, and land.

Don't try to outthink the system. No radio, the proceedures are straightforward.

Fly to your destination and land the airplane.

Why do people think you would LEAVE the clearance limit, IF the clearance limit IS THE AIRPORT?!!!

 

[TDTURBO]

Why sweat the thing, buy a handheld and forgedda bout it!

 

[Checks]

Thanks for the replies.

Jedi:
Even if I filed IAF's instead of airports ATC will almost always give you direct to the destination airport.

Other guy: You said-
"Why do people think you would LEAVE the clearance limit, IF the clearance limit IS THE AIRPORT?!!!"

I will agree that if the clearance limit is the airport then you proceed direct the airport. The issue becomes when to descend, the 91.185 is very clear that you can not descend until reaching the clearance limit. Are you saying to ignore the FAR's and begin descent prior to the clearance limit?

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

I think understand now.

91.185(c)(3)(i) is the ability to shoot an approach in IMC with lost radio contact. If the clearance limit is KABC, you need to fly to (and over) KABC. Then you can then clear yourself under this part to shoot an approach into KABC. You are not allowed to decend to the approach altitudes until you are over the IAF (at which point you are now on the approach and can use the altitudes on the chart).

 

[avbug]

Checks,

Re-read the regulation. 91.185 makes no statement, implied or otherwise, about not descending until reaching the clearance limit.

91.185(b)(2) regards altitude to be used as the highest of last assigned, minimum IFR, or last advised for EFC. It says nothing about maintaining an altitude until the clearance limit.

Perhaps you're confused by 91.185(b)(3), which discusses leaving the clearance limit. In this case, the regulation advises that one should leave the clearance limit as close as possible to filed ETA, when the clearance limit is a fix from which an approach at the destination begins. It goes on to advise that if it's not a fix from which an approach begins, then one should leave the clearance limit to arrive at destination as close as possible to ETA.

Let's get practical. Are you going to fly to your destination airport and hold overhead until your filed ETA? No. Who knows your filed ETA? ATC doesn't; that's a paper issue. They have a projected ETA as updated on computer. They do not have your complete flight plan in front of them. They're watching you as a primary and/or secondary return on radar in most cases, and know where you are and exactly what your ETA will be at your current rate of progression. Does anybody want you to needlessly hold without comm when you can fly to the destination and land? No.

You are under no constraint to not descend until the clearance limit. If your clearance limit is your destination, you may fly there via any appropriate approach, and land. You should do just that. Your use of altitudes is governed enoute by the highest of those previously specified. On arrival and the descent into your destination, you should adhere to appropriate altitudes for the descent and approach to the destination.

 

[Lead Sled]

Excellent points Avbug. For a pilot of a high performance jet, it wouldn't be very practical to maintain FL410 (or more) until I reached the clearance limit. ATC is going to clear the airspace for miles around. They want to you to be predictable. I guarantee you that if you maintain altitude until you get to the airport they're going to be wondering just what on Earth you're going to do next. If possible, descend so as to maintain a 3 degree descent path. If you have to shoot an approach get yourself to an appropriate IAF and fly an approach. ATC will see what you're doing and you'll have the airspace to yourself.

Lead Sled

 

[LAZYB]

ATC clears your route...

from your altitude to the "ground". They aren't landing or taking off a/c from your destination airport whilst you leave the "clearance limit" at cruise altitude, preparing to descend and begin an approach. ATC doesn't have any way of knowing, when you're NORDO, if you've lost complete electrical, or have any other failures/emergencies.

 

[Checks]

First off, I am not looking for what any normal, sane pilot would do. I am just trying to interpret the regulation word for word.

(ii) If the clearance limit is not a fix from which an approach begins, leave the clearance limit at the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival over the clearance limit, and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time enroute.

Now, lets take that section and insert airport for “not a fix from which an approach begins”

(ii) If the clearance limit is an airport, leave the airport at the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival over the airport, and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time enroute.

If I read the regulation correctly, it does not authorize me to descend until reaching the clearance limit. I'm I missing something?

As far as the ETA part goes, I stated the following in my original post.
(keeping in mind that ATC may have updated your ETA throughout the flight, assuming you were in radar contact or gave position positions prior to going NORDO). Hold at IAF if arriving before your ETA).

 

[avbug]

AGAIN,

The regulation says nothing about being unable to descend until the clearance limit. Asked, and answered.

You are to maintain the highest of your filed altitude, that which you have been cleared for, or that told to expect, for the route segment being flown.

When you're established on an arrival or approach, you may descend as required to meet the appropriate altitudes for that route segment.

If your clearance limit is your destination, the elevation at your destination is the TDZE.

 

[Checks]

Avbug, I appreciate the response. I must be really slow because here is what the AIM has written regarding what altitude to fly and it doesnt jive with your post:

(b) Altitude. At the HIGHEST of the following altitudes or flight levels FOR THE ROUTE SEGMENT BEING FLOWN:
(1) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
(2) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in 14 CFR Section 91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or
(3) The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance.
EXAMPLE-
1. A pilot experiencing two-way radio failure at an assigned altitude of
7,000 feet is cleared along a direct route which will require a climb to a minimum IFR altitude of 9,000 feet, should climb to reach 9,000 feet at the time or place where it becomes necessary (see 14 CFR Section 91.177(b)). Later while proceeding along an airway with an MEA of
5,000 feet, the pilot would descend to 7,000 feet (the last assigned altitude), because that altitude is higher than the MEA.


3. The MEA between a and b: 5,000 feet. The MEA between b and c: 5,000 feet. The MEA between c and d: 11,000 feet. The MEA between d and e: 7,000 feet. A pilot had been cleared via a, b, c, d, to e. While flying between a and b the assigned altitude was 6,000 feet and the pilot was told to expect a clearance to 8,000 feet at b. Prior to receiving the higher altitude assignment, the pilot experienced two-way failure. The pilot would maintain 6,000 to b, then climb to 8,000 feet (the altitude advised to expect). The pilot would maintain 8,000 feet, then climb to
11,000 at c, or prior to c if necessary to comply with an MCA at c. (14 CFR Section 91.177(b).) Upon reaching d, the pilot would descend to 8,000 feet (even though the MEA was 7,000 feet), as
8,000 was the highest of the altitude situations stated in the rule (14 CFR Section 91.185).