non published holding patterns

[Ryan]

I’m about ready to take my instrument check ride and have found one of the most difficult parts of the training was figuring out which type of entry to use for a holding pattern. The concept was pretty straight forward but of course when I was actually in the plane, trying to fly, looking at the charts and trying to keep calm it was a lot more difficult! After several hours of practice on MSFS2004 I feel much better about them.

The other week my instructor told me that sometimes atc will tell you to hold at a non-published holding pattern. Of course when I’m sitting at my kitchen table I have no trouble figuring these out but I can’t imagine trying to do it while flying. Are there any tricks to making these easier or is it "practice makes perfect"?

Thanks for any help.

 

[moving2vegas]

holding patterns

Every instrument students hardest area, what holding pattern entry to use??? Your instructors right. With more and more IFR gps comes more people off established airways and traveling direct. Thus controllers issue more non published holding patterns. For those on us doing single pilot IFR and don't have an FMS/ 10" MFD/ or $20,000 garmin GPS it does become confusing fast. Many NP holds are fortunately very straightforward. Most of what I hear are VOR or DME holds on a radial. For example: "hold on the ABC 123 radial, 10 DME fix, left turns" They're usually easy to figure out, but the entry is where it gets tricky. Here's my 2 cents worth. What holding entry you use depends on the situation you're in. If your VFR on top or IFR with ok vis, a long distance from the hold, or not under some form of pressure; then take your time and figure out the correct entry. Now if its hard IFR, you just got the hold 1 min before the fix, and you're time crunched, screw the correct entry and just make sure you turn toward the protected side. Now every pilot on this message board is going to bash me for saying that, but personally I feel it's better to make the turn toward the protected side than fly straight ahead and run into a mountain while you figure out which is the best entry method. Now I'm going to mess you up more. This is one of those "do as I say not as I do" situations. Since you're an instrument student, you're examiner & instructor don't what to hear what I said. They want the textbook answer and response. Which is figure out the correct entry and do that. Every pilot on this message board is going to give you a different "trick" they use. Some will be great and others worthless. Take em' with a grain of salt, mine included.

 

[UnstableAviator]

You're doing the right thing by using your avaliable resources to help; Flight sim is a fantastic tool for working on instrument skills on your own time.

As for your question, I'd definately say that practice makes perfect. Keep it up, and pretty soon the correct entry will be obvious to you. There are only 3, and usually a simple game of visualization, followed by elimination, will narrow it down quickly.

 

[LXApilot]

Holding Entry

Instrument Student-

Just remember that the holding entry methods defined in the AIM are only suggested and not regulatory in nature. I agree that if you are crunched for time make the turn to the protected side and do whatever you have to get yourself established in the hold. One thing I always did is draw the hold in relationship to my airplane and then once you have it down, you can usually apply the normal 70/30/180 method of finding the correct entry. Good luck on your IFR checkride, its the funnest one you'll take!

 

[TDTURBO]

Re: Holding Entry

Instrument Student-

Good luck on your IFR checkride, its the funnest one you'll take!

Oh ya, the instrument checkride is loads of fun.

 

[A Squared]

Re: Holding Entry

Good luck on your IFR checkride, its the funnest one you'll take!

Huh? what sort of twisted freak are you? My seaplane checkride was fun, my glider checkride was fun, my instrument checkride was just work.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

Just remember that the holding entry methods defined in the AIM are only suggested and not regulatory in nature.

But on a checkride you have to show proper entries. I had a student of mine fail a multi-instrument check ride because he liked to do his own hold entries because like he said, "they are not regulatory in nature". He came back with me and we did some remedial and he learned correct holding pattern entries and passed his checkride.

 

[350DRIVER]

Holding is one area that seems to cause instrument students the most trouble. I would not get down on yourself, the more you do them the easier they will become. I have done probably 3 tops in the past few years in actual imc. Most of my holds were accomplished during 6 month checks/evaluations. This does seem to be one area that makes or breaks pilots during a sim evaluation during the interview process so surely understand them as well as possible since you probably will not a great deal of them in a real world scenario. I probably just jinxed myself so I may regret this post in the upcoing months.

good luck on the ride


3 5 0

 

[Singlecoil]

Isn't anyone going to mention the thumb on the DG method?

 

[T-Gates]

I was waiting for that too......

 

[Snoopy58]

One technique that works for me, use it or not as it might work for you...

First, draw the pattern on your kneeboard the way it would appear on a chart. When controller says "hold East of..." you draw a wind arrow coming FROM THE EAST, i.e. "<-----" and know that the arrowhead is the FIX. Then draw in whatever else you need to define the fix and the holding pattern, i.e. "... the whozit VOR on the 090 radial, 10 mile legs, left turns." (VOR at the fix, draw the racetrack, 090 is the radial, 10dme is the start-the-turn-in point)

Then, having drawn the pattern, draw (or picture) your airplane as it is in relation to that pattern... so if you're east of the VOR flying west, you can see you're lined up on the inbound leg, or if you're west of the fix flying east, you can see how you'll hit the fix & be set up for a teardrop, etc.

For me, I find that a "God's eye view" is a good way to "sanity check" whatever answer I get with the other methods (or often yields the obvious answer itself), and keeps situational awareness up. If you're holding at an "as published" fix, well, the first half is already done since the hold is there in front of you on the approach or enroute chart.

Cheers,

Snoopy

 

[7B2]

?

 

[midlifeflyer]

One technique that works for me, use it or not as it might work for you...

I use essentially the same method.

You're approaching the VOR from the northeast. You get the instruction

==============================
Hold southwest of the XYZ VOR on the 220 radial. Left Turns. Maintain 8,000 ft. Expect further clearance at 0000Z
==============================

For those for whom it works, it becomes a graphic shorthand to both copy the clearance and visualize the entry,

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

from an atc standpoint and as someone with about 1500 hours of cross country ifr expierience, most controllers personally aren't going to care how you enter the hold. That airspace is going to be protected for you so whether its a teardrop, a parallel, or direct. usually, with lag on center radar or tracon radar....that piece of sky is yours....

 

[Weasil]

non published holds

My favorite was the controller who had several tries at giving me a holding instruction. After screwing it up a third time he said "I tell you what, I'll just give you vectors in a square for a while until I can clear you for the approach" and so he did... north, east, south, west, north ... etc.....

 

[Illini Pilot]

draw it out on your kneeboard or whatever! its the easiest way and you'll have something to reference to double check before you enter

 

[bobbysamd]

Holding entries

[O]n a checkride you have to show proper entries. I had a student of mine fail a multi-instrument check ride because he liked to do his own hold entries because like he said, "they are not regulatory in nature". He came back with me and we did some remedial and he learned correct holding pattern entries and passed his checkride.

I have a friend who is a current instructor. We talked the week before last, and he told me that the PTS has been changed to allow any kind of holding entry as long as one remains in protected airspace. In other words, you can use an 90/270 instead of a parallel entry, teardrop, or whatever.

Just the same, during training and on a checkride I would use the AIM-recommended holding entries (primarily because they are the ones I know and understand the best, having taught them to a good number of instrument students). Despite what the PTS might say, many examiners are not especially open-minded. They want to see holding entries by the book. So, as long as you do it by the book, there is no room for argument, or pink slips.

Finally, I've had only two real holds. One was to a VOR and it was a straightforward direct entry to a published hold. The other was to a DME fix, with ATC defining the leg length in DME, so no worries about timing. It, too, was a straightforward, direct entry. I realize that two holds does not consititute the entirety of ATC's holding mindset, but my experience and those of others lead me to believe that ATC will try give holding in as straightforward a manner as possible. Flight instructors tend to give more perverted holds, for good reason.

 

[labbats]

from an atc standpoint and as someone with about 1500 hours of cross country ifr expierience, most controllers personally aren't going to care how you enter the hold.

As long as it's right turns, right? Haha! Man that was some intense flying! Minimums! Go around! No, wait... I see it!! Learned lots and had fun.



Personally, I don't do the established parallel entry as written in the AIM. It's much easier to create a teardrop and intercept the inbound a ways out from the fix rather than do a proper parallel entry where you loop around and find yourself right on top of the fix, with a heading different from a normal inbound. Now you've got to deal with the extra turn, the extra time to make that turn, and a fix popping up on you at the most difficult time of a hold. It doesn't make sense. Instead, cross the fix, then make a 30 degree cut from your wind correction to the protected side for the allotted time (1 min with no wind) and then turn your teardrop back towards the inbound course. You intercept a much more steady needle, plus all of the other reasons I mentioned.

It'd be much easier if I could just draw it. I suggest getting some chalk and making a holding pattern on the ground, then walking towards it from different angles. It helped me understand how and why different intercepts were needed and gave me a better understanding of spatial orientation.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I had a student of mine fail a multi-instrument check ride because he liked to do his own hold entries

So long as the entries kept him in protected airspace, the Examiner should have been reported to the FSDO for violating FAA policy. It's a recurrent issue, with AFS-600, the Designee branch rep[etedly telling examiners

==============================
Another question frequently asked, "Must the pilot examiner test the applicant using the recommended holding pattern entry, or can the applicant use any desired method? In the past, an applicant would have been required to use one of the three recommended procedures; however, a change has occurred.

***
If an applicant elects to use holding pattern entry procedures other than those recommended by the FAA and, in doing so, remains within the holding pattern airspace to be protected, the procedure would be acceptable if accomplished safely.
==============================

AFS-600 Designee Update Vol. 6, No. 2, April 1994

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

Some more input regarding holds. Nonpublished holding is generally a failure of the ATC system. Things get too saturated and they have to put you in a nonpublished hold. If it's published then the slowdown has been known to happen before but a nonpublished hold means things have really gotten screwed up. Most of my nonpublished holds have been, "hold inbound on your present inboud radial." Otherwise they've always been, "Hold as published," which is on an airway or at the IAF. To figure out the way to enter a hold I use the thumb method or a modified version of it. (Hard to explain without showing you my thumb, sorrry) Back when I was in the CRJ all you did was enter the hold in the FMS and it figured the entry out for you and the autopilot flew it all. It was great. Now back in the E-120 I'm back to the thumb method.