Non ALPA United Pilots

[indytestdude]

I am curious why United's ALPA continues to allow Non ALPA pilots to fly maintenance? With all the guys on the street its seems like ALPA has dropped the ball.

 

[labbats]

Or dropped Air Wisconsin for Go Jets and SkyWest. Both non union.

 

[TransMach]

Ual Alpa

Many collective barganing agreements (union contracts) "protect" the membership from having to fly maintenance flights. The union forces "management pilots" to take this risk.

TransMach

 

[Rick James]

Or dropped Air Wisconsin for Go Jets and SkyWest. Both non union.

Youre depth of knowledge in the workings of airlines and unions is staggering. Do you honestly believe that ALPA has the power to dictate to UAL who they outsource their flying to? I would imagine that the fine pilots at UA are more concerned with the long term viability of the company than this. Please get a bit more experience in the industry before posting these types of remarks.

 

[labbats]

Youre depth of knowledge in the workings of airlines and unions is staggering. Do you honestly believe that ALPA has the power to dictate to UAL who they outsource their flying to? I would imagine that the fine pilots at UA are more concerned with the long term viability of the company than this. Please get a bit more experience in the industry before posting these types of remarks.

Nothing like a personal attack to make a little man feel big. I don't judge people on this board by their flight time. Too bad so many others do. I find it odd that you don't see any conflict in an employee owned airline outsourcing to non-union entities.

 

[Rick James]

Labbats,
I apologize for the personal attack, a nerve was struck. You're right, flight time should not be a judge of character, but without knowing someone personally its about all we have to go on (same with getting a job in this biz).
UAL is no longer employee owned, ESOP is gone. The outsourcing dilema, union or not, is a problem that surfaced when I was in grade school. Sadly, we are our own worst enemy.

 

[TransMach]

UAL APLA - Maintenance Flying

Rick,

Thanks for the personal attack, no hard feelings as I understand that many have very sore nerves regarding outsourcing ... outsourcing is just not the point here. Engineering Test Pilots at UAL are regular everyday employees, just not part of the pilot's APLA collective barganing group.

Before answering, I went further to re-check my beliefs concerning maintenance flying by asking friends at UAL, AAL, DAL and my past carriers. All agreed with my recollection that all maintenance flying (return to service test flights, engine out ferries, flight control and aerondynmic ... "proof of fix" ... problems, etc.) are flown by the carrier's "Engineering Test Pilots". Simple ferry flights (requiring a "Special Flight Permit", i.e. gear down and pinned, speed and altitude restricted, gear down performance independantly verified) and maintenance positioning flights are flown by the regular rank and file.

The Engineering Test Pilots are specially trained and qualified to deal with the kind of stuff (engine out ferry flights) that the regular line pilot is not. I was incorrect in referring to them as "management pilots", they are not. They are normally a group, unto themselves, who are uniquely qualified to do this type of flying. Most have advanced aeronautical engineering degrees and have built their careers on this very rare and potentially dangerous specialty.

I stand on my statement that the union contracts normally "protect" the rank and file from having to undertake this type of flight assignment. This is done as a safety control/certificate maintenance position that the union takes. Yes, the union does have the "clout" to request that their members not be burdened with maintenance flying and the company agrees! There are specialists for that.

On an aside, a fellow that I worked with years ago went to work for Air Transport International (ATI) as a DC-8 first officer. I believe they are a Teamster shop rather than APLA, but I'm not certain. If I recall correctly, he was killed during an attempted take-off on a 3-engine ferry flight flown by a line crew as ATI had no Engineering Test Pilots. My point ...

UAL has, I'm told, approximately 12 Engineering Test Pilots which, in comparison to the regular pilot group would represent less than .001 of the pilot work force. Hardly a big revenue producing bunch for APLA but certainly an important feature in any large air carrier's operation. I suppose that if these individuals felt they needed ALPA's help, they could organize.

Although not extended to me personally your apology is accepted, and thanks!

Fair winds,

TransMach

 

[Rick James]

TransMach,
In no way was I directing my comment to you, please ignore my post. I sent a PM your way. Other's perception of reality sometimes gets the best of my patience, and that was the point of my response.
On a side note, I've been told these engineering pilots are actually typed on all the equipment on property. I cant imagine the studying nightmare that would be.

 

[TransMach]

Ual Alpa

Rick,

1) Accepted

2) Correct. They are rated on all equipment on property. The good news is that they are never in a hurry as line pilots often are. They can take their sweet time getting ready to and doing one of the really great jobs in aviation. They are a special bunch and that was my point.

Cheers,

TransMach

 

[indytestdude]

News Flash: There are 15 UAL test Pilots. 4 on street, out of seniority I might add. As to ALPA, the test pilots tried to organize, but ALPA didn't want anything to do with it. Oh by the way the engineering flying would have gone away if they had suceeded in organizing.