"No horn No land"

[StealthyOne]

Hi, I'm a total newbie here, doing some homework on learning how to fly, picking a flight school, instructor etc. I live in the Chicago area, and checked out Palwaukee Flyers recently. I came away from there a little uneasy. I just didn't have a warm fuzzy feeling after checking out the outfit and talking to they're people. One thing I noticed was a sign on the wall that said, " No Horn , No land" They explained that as a safety precaution, they didn't want any of they're students landing until they were going slow enough to were they heard the stall warning horn go off. Is this common prcatice? (The aircraft were Beech Sundowners.) I asked one of the guys about it, and he said he didn't really know why they insisted on that practice, and that a student actually stalled one about 50 feet off the deck recently on landing! The plane crashed, and now sits in a pile in one corner of the hanger. What's the story on this place? Any solid recomendations on where to learn to fly, ground school, etc?

Thanks for any replies!

 

[banned username 2]

Palwaukee Flyers

Before you give any money to this flight school you may want to thoroughly read the following thread!

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=37950

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yes, there is a purist school of though that the stall warning =must= be blaring in order to land. Like most purists, they hold the firm belief that theirs is the only right way without a shred of evidence to back it up.

BTW, welcome. And look for that "warm and fuzzy" feeling.

 

[minitour]

Ideally, yes, you'd be "stalling" just as the mains touch down, but that isn't always possible...

I guess you just want to be touching down as slow as possible to save the Tires...but if you've got some gusty crosswinds or an electrical failure (no flaps) then it may be necessary to land a little faster.....

...Or when the guys working local in CLE tell you "Best speed to the numbers" and no one is behind you for 20 minutes...sometimes I think they just do it to get a kick...

-mini

 

[User546]

When I was originally taught, thats the way they taught it to me - you want the stall horn going off right as your mains touch down.

But through my little adventure in aviation, I've come to disregard that. To me I'm always a lot more comfortable coming in a little bit faster then I am slower. I'd much rather come in with a little bit extra speed, then not come in with enough. There's no forgiveness with the latter.

And besides, that stuff don't work when you start flying jets! I can't wait to see the look on the Captain's face next time its my landing in the Citation and I start holding it off the runway, and explain to him that I'm going to let the airspeed bleed off until we get the stall horn. That would be priceless.

 

[minitour]

...
And besides, that stuff don't work when you start flying jets! I can't wait to see the look on the Captain's face next time its my landing in the Citation and I start holding it off the runway, and explain to him that I'm going to let the airspeed bleed off until we get the stall horn. That would be priceless.

LOL

Just the mental image I'm getting on that one is awesome...I could just hear the Capt now...

"Anytime you want to put this thing down would be fine with me...."
*stall horn*
"...like now..."

thanks for the pick-me-up!

-mini

 

[Lead Sled]

Yes, there is a purist school of though that the stall warning =must= be blaring in order to land. Like most purists, they hold the firm belief that theirs is the only right way without a shred of evidence to back it up.

BTW, welcome. And look for that "warm and fuzzy" feeling.

Dittos on the welcome. Take your time, check out the schools, but remember - it's the individual instructor that's going to be the primary factor in the quality of your training. Choose him/her carefully.

For all of you guys who think that you've got to get a horn before you land consider this - when it comes to tranport category jet aircraft your approach speed is "Vref". By definition, Vref is 1.3 Vso. It's considered poor form to touch down any slower than Vref -10 kts. Vref is a function of weight and of course varies from airplane to airplane. A ref speed of 130 knots isn't uncommon in the stuff I fly. That would put Vso at roughly 100 knots. We normally would touch down between 125 and 120 knots - well above stall speed. See what you have to look forward to.

'Sled

 

[Flyguy2k8]

Hey Minitour,

I really like the mental image from your mental image...thanks for making me laugh. BEEEEEEP...KURPLUNK!!!

Also I agree that the stall warning horn can allow for the ideal landing, but i've never actually known of a place that required it.

Tailwinds always.

 

[Flyguy2k8]

P.S. Guys..

I'm totally still laughing!!

 

[mayday1]

check out Waukegan Wings..

You might want to check out Waukegan Wings (obviously, Waukegan airport) if that isn't too far for you. I used to fly out of Palwaukee (Airway Flight Services) doing multi training, but the majority of their fleet which was on lease back just got moved to Waukegan. I elected to go up there to stay with the same plane, as I'm more than half way through my multi-commercial course. They have an initial membership fee, but their rates are somewhat reasonable, and you'll be flying nice equipment - 1998-2002 Skyhawks, Skylane (all GPS, autopilot, etc). Some of the initial cost will be offset by the fact Waukegan is a great training airport (has a tower, decent amount of traffic, but nothing like Palwaukee where you might be number 4 or 5 for takeoff after a long taxi).

I agree with another poster -- look carefully at Palwaukee Flyers -- have heard nothing but very bad things -- e.g. taxi practice when the weather isn't good -- WTF is that!?

 

[minitour]

Hey Minitour,

I really like the mental image from your mental image...thanks for making me laugh. BEEEEEEP...KURPLUNK!!!

Also I agree that the stall warning horn can allow for the ideal landing, but i've never actually known of a place that required it.

Tailwinds always.

Yeah...as the Captain is just dumbfounded looking at his "stickshaker" going buck...

"you know we're supposed to hold short of Sierra..."
*BEEP* *shake shake shake*
"uhm..."
*BAM*
"...aaaaaaaaaaaaand Ground X123 off the right side, gonna be a minute to change a diaper..." (gotta throw in the fancy "aaaaaaaand" to start off every radio call - "aaaaaaand departure Citation 12345 3 for 9 runway heading" "aaaaaaaand center Citation 12345 checkin in 14 point five for Three-Two-Oh" I guess thats another thread altogether)

I should write a picture book...the pictures that go through my head are priceless...

Thanks for making ME laugh.......again....

-mini

 

[banned username 2]

"aaaaaaaand center Citation 12345 checkin in 14 point five for Three-Two-Oh"

Hope you're not stoppin' at FL320, DRVSM doesn't go into effect for another 3 months (Jan. 20, 2005)

 

[StealthyOne]

Thanks guys

Thanks for the heads up and welcome guys, this forum seems like a great spot to exchange info! I think I'll be looking into Windy City flyers or Waukeegan Wings. Now, how about ground school? any tips there? I live next to Harper College, and they have a adult continuing education course there starting in January. I thought about that, or maybe doing the King Schools course. Whadya think?

 

[Flyguy2k8]

I would like to personally endorse King Schools. I bought the cd ROM course and I owe my great score on the written to them. It comes with the workbook and like 14 cd's. Each one breaks down and explains the concepts excellantly.

It is deffinately a good approach.

 

[Flyguy2k8]

Yeah...as the Captain is just dumbfounded looking at his "stickshaker" going buck...

"you know we're supposed to hold short of Sierra..."
*BEEP* *shake shake shake*
"uhm..."
*BAM*
"...aaaaaaaaaaaaand Ground X123 off the right side, gonna be a minute to change a diaper..." (gotta throw in the fancy "aaaaaaaand" to start off every radio call - "aaaaaaand departure Citation 12345 3 for 9 runway heading" "aaaaaaaand center Citation 12345 checkin in 14 point five for Three-Two-Oh" I guess thats another thread altogether)

I should write a picture book...the pictures that go through my head are priceless...

Thanks for making ME laugh.......again....

-mini

As he calls up tower, seemingly complacant with what just took place, as if it were company policy to fly that way!!

 

[minitour]

Hope you're not stoppin' at FL320, DRVSM doesn't go into effect for another 3 months (Jan. 20, 2005)

ah thats the system for ya...

"aaaaaaaaaand Clearance Citation 12345 IFR to Hunkytunky, ready to copy"

"Citation 12345 cleared to Hunkytunky as filed, maintain FL320, expect FL340 20 minutes after departure, departure on 133.75 squawk 0420"

"AAAAAAAAAND citation 345 cleared as filed maintain three two OH expect three four OH twenty minutes departure on thirty-three point seventyfive, and oh four two oh on the box'"

"*sigh* Readback is correct.........sort of"

I can't wait to get out of training so I can be cool and talk like that instead of using the AIM "language"...

-mini

PS
Yeah, its not necessary to land with the horn going off....*trying to save the thread from getting off topic....oh...nevermind*

 

[Flyguy2k8]

Oh this thread was about something to do with a stall horn or something. I thought it was about sharring cool pilot talk. Just kidding. I agree we have to follow the lingo by the books. Something cool to try would to fly an airplane like N***CB, so we could say Charlie Brown. FYI if you ever feel like busting your checkrides, say charlie brown instead of charlie bravo.


I figured I would leave you with a funny air traffic line. Hope these three jokes make you laugh.

Tower: "Delta 351, you have traffic at 10 o'clock, 6 miles!" Delta 351: "Give us another hint! We have digital watches!"

"TWA 2341, for noise abatement turn right 45 Degrees." "Centre, we are at 35,000 feet. How much noise can we make up here?" "Sir, have you ever heard the noise a 747 makes when it hits a 727?"

From an unknown aircraft waiting in a very long takeoff queue: "I'm f...ing bored!" Ground Traffic Control: "Last aircraft transmitting, identify yourself immediately!" Unknown aircraft: "I said I was f...ing bored, not f...ing stupid!"

 

[Flyguy2k8]

One more...for tonight atleast:

Allegedly the German air controllers at Frankfurt Airport are renowned as a short-tempered lot. They, it is alleged, not only expect one to know one's gate parking location, but how to get there without any assistance from them. So it was with some amusement that we (a Pan Am 747) listened to the following exchange between Frankfurt ground control and a British Airways 747, call sign Speedbird 206. Speedbird 206: "Frankfurt, Speedbird 206 clear of active runway." Ground: "Speedbird 206. Taxi to gate Alpha One-Seven." The BA 747 pulled onto the main taxiway and slowed to a stop. Ground: "Speedbird, do you not know where you are going?" Speedbird 206: "Stand by, Ground, I'm looking up our gate location now." Ground (with quite arrogant impatience): "Speedbird 206, have you not been to Frankfurt before?" Speedbird 206 (coolly): "Yes, twice in 1944, but it was dark,...... and I didn't land."

 

[IP076]

I'd much rather come in with a little bit extra speed, then not come in with enough. .

Fine and dandy until you do that once a decade short field approach and landing...then the trees at the other end seem to get bigger faster as well!

Whats that they say about a jet? 5% extra speed over the fence translates into something like a 20% increase in landing distance.

I've never quite understood what the problem with being "On Speed" is? Other than students can't hold constant speed, so they allways say they're carrying a little extra speed, just in case.

Disclaimer: I Do not believe the "No Horn, No Land" theory. However, those of you that fly light airplanes, ie 172, should be hearing the horn before landing. Heck, it usually comes on 10+ above stall. You should hear it most of the way through the transition (If it works).

How about not setting the airplane on the ground other than in the landing attitude?

 

[minitour]

One more...for tonight atleast:

...Speedbird 206 (coolly): "Yes, twice in 1944, but it was dark,...... and I didn't land."

Spank!