No flame, looking for PFT

[jimpilot]

Once again I must say....

If only Bill Gates could invent a giant hand that would come out of the computer screen and smack the crap out of people who post stuff like this we'd all be better off.

Gee how do you realy feel? Rather you like it or agree with it, PFT is a coming thing. I think it will continue to spread through the industry.

Just my opinion but you know what, it is every bit as valid as yours no matter what you try and screem at me next.

 

[F16fixer]

These are the kind of questions that make most people sit in front of their computer and are addicted to this site. Dude, just do what you gotta do with your friend and don't ask any more questions that you know will not produce an answer.

Good luck

 

[enigma]

So did I, but I had to give uncle sam years of my life for it. All I'm saying is and I am responsible for hiring pilots, it is a career path. If the military isn't a choice you have to be either luckey or make something happen with something like PFT. As NJCapt pointed out the industry is flush with qualified pilots.

jimpilot. The reason that you and your management friends consider buying a job to be a career path is obvious. You prefer compliant, controllable people who are only out for number one. The "buy a job" mindset is great for management. People with that mindset willingly show their lack of respect for their co-workers and their profession. I shouldn't even be going here, but I'm just about burned out by this business and by the backstabbing SOB's that screw us all. Sorry, nothing personal

enigma

 

[jimpilot]

jimpilot. The reason that you and your management friends consider buying a job to be a career path is obvious. You prefer compliant, controllable people who are only out for number one. The "buy a job" mindset is great for management. People with that mindset willingly show their lack of respect for their co-workers and their profession. I shouldn't even be going here, but I'm just about burned out by this business and by the backstabbing SOB's that screw us all. Sorry, nothing personal

enigma

Let me understand

management = bad


Believe it or not there are a lot of folks in management who spend each day trying to do what is right and fair. Only to have guys trash them because they and only they have the right answers and if management would only listen to them all would be well.

It is scary how little most folks know about their company and what goes into decisions, but of course that doesn't even slow them down. They blame all things bad on management.

It's a shame really, there could be a lot of positive come from working together. Most (not all) but most are good guys trying to get through the day and make things a little better for everyone.

Sorry about the flame, but I get so tired of pilots telling me how they have the answer and if we would just change things so the world revolves around them as it should, them the skies would part and all would be well. The whole time I'm listening to this I know that they are like the blind men looking at the elephant. They have only a small part of the picture.

 

[jimpilot]

I know what they're thinking because I used to be just as guilty of it.

 

[LAXSaabdude]

Believe it or not there are a lot of folks in management who spend each day trying to do what is right and fair.

Perhaps. Those are not the same managers who advocate PFT.

It's a shame really, there could be a lot of positive come from working together.

Agreed. It is heartening to see that pilots, as a whole, are standing up against PFT.

LAXSaabdude.

 

[enigma]

Let me understand

management = bad


Believe it or not there are a lot of folks in management who spend each day trying to do what is right and fair. Only to have guys trash them because they and only they have the right answers and if management would only listen to them all would be well.

It is scary how little most folks know about their company and what goes into decisions, but of course that doesn't even slow them down. They blame all things bad on management.

It's a shame really, there could be a lot of positive come from working together. Most (not all) but most are good guys trying to get through the day and make things a little better for everyone.

Sorry about the flame, but I get so tired of pilots telling me how they have the answer and if we would just change things so the world revolves around them as it should, them the skies would part and all would be well. The whole time I'm listening to this I know that they are like the blind men looking at the elephant. They have only a small part of the picture.

Sorry about the flame, but I get so tired of decision makers who make personel decisions based upon who pays the largest bribe. PFT is nothing more than a bribe, or extortion which ever way you chose to call it, and managers who advocate such business practices are themselves only looking at the elephants rear. This is a people business, and managers who refuse to recognize the people component make bad decisions.

enigma

 

[FN FAL]

Nah, I'd just sit down and write all the swear words you know in a line, including those in other languages. If yer gonna git an "F", might as well have fun...

C

Hahaha...maybe I oughta just write, "all work and no play, makes jack a dull boy" until I meet the word count...Muhahahaha!

Heeeeere's Johnnnnny!

 

[msuspartans24]

Robbing liquor stores at gunpoint to fund your flight training is a way to get into the aviation business. It is not, however, a legitimate way of entering the field.

That has got to be the worst analogy I've every heard. Last I checked PFT isn't illegal, as is "robbing a liquor store".

 

[smellthejeta]

That has got to be the worst analogy I've every heard. Last I checked PFT isn't illegal, as is "robbing a liquor store".

Well, in aviation, there are plenty of things that are legal but not brilliant, bright, or otherwise smart things to do.

 

[jimpilot]

This is a people business, and managers who refuse to recognize the people component make bad decisions.
enigma

I'm not sure I agree that it is a people business, any more so than most service business. But either way it is still a business and has to be run that way. Decisions have to be made with a large eye toward the bottom line (because if they aren't, it's just a matter of time until no one has a job). Pilots' often don't see that, they want decisions made based on what is best for the pilots. We've seen a lot of aviation go away, for a lot of reasons. I hope that pilots get enough business sense to not be the cause of still more failures.

 

[Godvek]

This is just a thought, so please don't flame away. PFT carriers are usually scumbag operators as a preface.

Why is your first year pay at a major or legacy carrier for example, so low? You are on probation, right? Does that mean you can not get compensation for doing the same job that you will do in year two?

In a sense, you can look at year one probation as PFT. Taking a $20,000-$35,000 pay cut from year two equals a good portion of the training costs. Obviously, if you work for a good major or legacy carrier, you are going to want to stay there. So why the justification?

 

[enigma]

I'm not sure I agree that it is a people business, any more so than most service business. But either way it is still a business and has to be run that way. Decisions have to be made with a large eye toward the bottom line (because if they aren't, it's just a matter of time until no one has a job). Pilots' often don't see that, they want decisions made based on what is best for the pilots. We've seen a lot of aviation go away, for a lot of reasons. I hope that pilots get enough business sense to not be the cause of still more failures.

The red sentence above would seem to imply that pilots have been the cause of some aviation business failures. Prove it!

Give us a list of aviation businesses who's failure can be layed at the feet of their pilots.


Next subject. I'm not sure which segment of aviation you manage, but if it carries people for hire, it's darned sure a people business. People (personel/employees) are the largest cost to an airline, and people are our main source of income. I'd think that management would follow the lead of the successful airlines and make their own people their number one priority. You know, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I know enough to emulate success. SWA business statement says that SWA employees are their number one priority. SWA happens to be the only successful (profitable) US major airline with a history going back at least ten years. The only profitable US major airline believes that their people are number one, that's a good enough testimonial for me.

enigma

PS, I know Jetblue, etc are successful, but they don't have a long history. They too happen to take care of their people. Are we seeing a pattern here?

 

[CandlerWun]

This is just a thought, so please don't flame away. PFT carriers are usually scumbag operators as a preface.

Why is your first year pay at a major or legacy carrier for example, so low? You are on probation, right? Does that mean you can not get compensation for doing the same job that you will do in year two?

In a sense, you can look at year one probation as PFT. Taking a $20,000-$35,000 pay cut from year two equals a good portion of the training costs. Obviously, if you work for a good major or legacy carrier, you are going to want to stay there. So why the justification?

I agree with this assessment; first-year pay is so low because it subsidizes your training costs. I find this practice just as disgraceful as outright PFT, especially at the regional level where it is hard to survive that first year. Josh M.

 

[enigma]

This is just a thought, so please don't flame away. PFT carriers are usually scumbag operators as a preface.

Why is your first year pay at a major or legacy carrier for example, so low? You are on probation, right? Does that mean you can not get compensation for doing the same job that you will do in year two?

In a sense, you can look at year one probation as PFT. Taking a $20,000-$35,000 pay cut from year two equals a good portion of the training costs. Obviously, if you work for a good major or legacy carrier, you are going to want to stay there. So why the justification?

I'll have to disagree. First year pay stinks, to that we'll all agree. Except maybe Publishers and jimpilot. But PFT is nothing more than a situation where the applicant's ability and desire to write a check is the most important criteria in the selection process. That differs greatly from an employer who selects the best pilot/person possible. I'm not exactly certain of the thinking behind low first year pay, but it has nothing to do with the selection process. In that, their is NO comparison between PFT and low first year pay.

regards,
enigma