No fatigue calls at CAL, no problem

[densoo]

-- That rest is being talked about by the lawyer for labor relations and not someone with "ops" or "safety" in their title says a lot.

-- How to "justify the added expense"?--ask the families of the Buffalo accident.

-- no fatigue calls = no problem? That could have something to do with the fact that they established a policy shortly after the Buffalo crash to call in sick, rather than fatigued, if you're fatigued. This hides that stat.

-- no fatigue calls = no problem? Can equally be applied to ontime stats. On time checks means the pilots are happy and there's no problem with the merger or the contract negotiations. That's how they see things.

Regulators have to do a cost-benefit analysis when proposing new regulations. It's fairly easy to calculate the cost of reducing individual work hours, such as the need for more employees, but the benefits are harder to quantify.

"How do we justify the added expense?" Hynes said.

Continental pilots can call in and report they're too fatigued to fly, said Jocelyn LaBove, director/counsel for labor relations for Continental Airlines, a subsidiary of United Continental Holdings. But she said that doesn't happen often, which suggests to her that it's not a big problem. Some of the responsibility to stay rested, she said, lies with individual employees, whether fatigue results from a late night of partying or a long commute.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/sixel/7550957.html

 

[list2002]

I had no idea how bad it was here, going into summer #4 on reserves and am already burnt out from late winter and spring. Hearing about PBS from guys that actually hold lines doesn't motivate me much either... at least I can report abuses to ALPA so they can document it for arbitration in about 5 years.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

I was in the picket at ORD on Tuesday. For whatever that's worth. It's high time to take this mismanagement team to task. I'm sick of this $hi#

 

[Skippy]

now, now , now - get back to work-- i may be furloughed, but i need your best out their to make that stock go up--- if i cant make $ at ual, ill make $ on ual

 

[pilotyip]

--
-- How to "justify the added expense"?--ask the families of the Buffalo accident.

not to rain on anyone's parade, but the crew had proper duty free time scheduled prior to be assigned duty. They were rested by anyone's rules including the new proposed Part 117. They may have been fatigued, but that was not due to not having adequate scheduled rest.

 

[Flopgut]

Yip: The crew was marginal and inexperienced by anyone's measure as well. CAL mgt decided to sharpshoot the scope clause and use a 70 seat prop flown under poverty level wages. All this while experienced mainline pilots were on the street furloughed. We're talking about rest rules, but what we need to talk about is changing the RLA. If airline workers had a proper relationship with the RLA, one or both of the seats in the Buffalo airplane would have been occupied by experienced, furloughed pilot(s). Because the orginal intent of the RLA was to also provide for "allocating experienced workers in a time of redundancy in the interest of safety". But unfortunately, mgrs like you decided that was way too expensive a long time ago and you've been allowed to run rampant. The rest changes have started the dialog, but will eventually lead to everybody realizing the problem is the RLA. IMHO.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

If CAL is so bad to work at then why are FATIGUE calls so low? Management does not see the issue when no calls are reported.

Post some schedules. Then tell us whether or not it was assigned or you volunteered. And if it is assigned what you plan to do about addressing the issue. If there is a problem masking it with SCAB attitudes will not solve it.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip: The crew was marginal and inexperienced by anyone's measure as well. CAL mgt decided to sharpshoot the scope clause and use a 70 seat prop flown under poverty level wages. All this while experienced mainline pilots were on the street furloughed. We're talking about rest rules, but what we need to talk about is changing the RLA. If airline workers had a proper relationship with the RLA, one or both of the seats in the Buffalo airplane would have been occupied by experienced, furloughed pilot(s). Because the orginal intent of the RLA was to also provide for "allocating experienced workers in a time of redundancy in the interest of safety". But unfortunately, mgrs like you decided that was way too expensive a long time ago and you've been allowed to run rampant. The rest changes have started the dialog, but will eventually lead to everybody realizing the problem is the RLA. IMHO.

This thread is about fatique, not pilot ability which is an entirely different thread. BTW mgrs' like me? A guy who became a ground school instructor in his mid-50's by way of an airline going out of business and the resultant unemployment. I am not sure that a DA-20 standards/check airman guy has much to do with anything relating to scheduling, cost savings, or other management things, other than saying "This guy is not safe to fly the line, I recommend him for termination" This something that is hard to do and is not done often enought

 

[densoo]

not to rain on anyone's parade, but the crew had proper duty free time scheduled prior to be assigned duty. They were rested by anyone's rules including the new proposed Part 117. They may have been fatigued, but that was not due to not having adequate scheduled rest.

I agree with this but you've got to consider not only 16-hour duty days and less than 9 hours of rest. They were on a short duty day and had lots of rest. But you've got to look at predictable human behavior when you're in a culture that only pays $16K/year in a high cost of living area. They'll be commuting long distances to get to work and living communally, neither conducive to rest. Low pay has consequences like this. There is a responsibility, or should be, at the legacy for outsourcing flying to get cheaper labor. When CPs can see folks sleeping in crew rooms, and rather than facing the reason for this (which they well know) they instead prohibit sleeping in the crew room, it shows they know there's a problem but refuse to deal with it.

It's interesting when the same company (and politicians) that swear by the free market principles of competition for cheaper and cheaper labor turn around and deny that these same market principles apply to the pilot when they're not paid for a fatigue call. To not pay a fatigue call is a disincentive to call in fatigued. Suddenly the market principles shouldn't apply (in their view) but a pilot's integrity to be safe at all times? Odd that pilots must have integrity, but the company doesn't have to have any. They can double pump reserves, standup overnights, segments following redeyes, and low pay and then essentially dare pilots to take it or leave it.

The "culture of safety" that virtually every airline says it has isn't just saying that "pilots will fly safe or they're fired." It's having safe practices in place before the pilots even get their schedule and show up at the plane.

 

[pilotyip]

They'll be commuting long distances to get to work and living communally, neither conducive to rest. The "culture of safety" that virtually every airline says it has isn't just saying that "pilots will fly safe or they're fired." It's having safe practices in place before the pilots even get their schedule and show up at the plane.

They were looking at not allowing jump seating as crew rest time to prevent this very situation. But it did not get much support.

 

[densoo]

They were looking at not allowing jump seating as crew rest time to prevent this very situation. But it did not get much support.

Yup. It shows full well the FAA knows exactly what is going on. I'm afraid the FAA is going to go with "promoting the industry" over "ensureing safety" on this NPRM.

Commuting is a very thorny issue to get into with regards to privacy rights, but it comes down to dollars. Pilots would be perfectly willing to commute in the day before and get real rest in a hotel if there were a duty rig that paid them 6 hours for the commute day and the company provided the hotel. What are the chances of that ever happening? There are solutions, but they're not cheap.

 

[jetpig32]

If CAL is so bad to work at then why are FATIGUE calls so low? Management does not see the issue when no calls are reported.

Post some schedules. Then tell us whether or not it was assigned or you volunteered. And if it is assigned what you plan to do about addressing the issue. If there is a problem masking it with SCAB attitudes will not solve it.

Call in sick, get paid. Call in FTG, no pay. You have to go beg the cp for sick bank to cover it.
iAH cp is on the record recommending pilots just call in sick. So, FTG goes undocumented in most cases