No Cabotage Here people!!!

[General Lee]

Mineta rules out cabotage for EC airlines, urges open skies
Dateline: Thursday April 08, 2004

US Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta said yesterday that cabotage will not be part of any agreement to create a transatlantic Open Aviation Area with the European Union as he urged European negotiators to accept a more limited agreement now.

Speaking in Brussels after meeting with EU Transport Commissioner Loyola de Palacio, Mineta told members of the European Aviation Club and the American Chamber of Commerce, "With an election coming up, I can't think of any way of Congress changing the law regarding cabotage…More than that, I don't think that Congress's feelings on cabotage will be any different in two or three years."
He stressed that both sides risk "closing the door on open skies for a long and uncertain period" if they do not conclude a deal before the end of the current US administration and European Commission later this year. "We ought to move quickly. There are forces on both sides of the Atlantic that don't want an agreement. It would be a backward step if we don't come up with an agreement before Loyola de Palacio leaves," he said.

Mineta added that he does not think Congress will change its mind on Fly America and that domestic wet-leasing is equally "off the table." Under Fly America, US government officials and contractors are required to fly on US carriers and/or their international codeshare partners when traveling outside the US.

He said both sides are close to reaching agreement on competition issues and acceptance of the principle of a "European airline," giving all European carriers the right to fly to the US from any point of departure within the EU. He also said that the Bush administration is willing to work with Congress to change US law to raise from 25% to 49% the amount of voting control permitted foreign investors in US carriers. EU law already allows the higher limit.

Mineta's plea to drop cabotage likely fell on deaf ears, however, as DG TREN Director of Aviation and negotiator for the EC Michel Ayral told ATWOnline that it is central to any kind of agreement. "We want a level playing field," he said firmly.

In general, European airlines and member states are reluctant to conclude a so-called early harvest agreement, fearing the US will not come back to the negotiating table if it succeeds in bringing the current bilaterals into conformity with European law. But Mineta said the US would agree to commit to "setting a timeline" to continue the talks. The next round of negotiations is set for the second week in May in Washington.--Cathy Buyck


Bye Bye--General Lee

PS---I remember telling certain cargo folks that due to terrorism concerns etc---there will be no foreign pilots flying for US airlines or flying domestic routes. I was right AGAIN.

 

[CatfishVT9]

Alright, I'm sure I'm not the only dummy. I had to look it up.

cabotage

n 1: the exclusive right of a country to control the air traffic within its borders 2: navigation in costal waters

Catfish

 

[FoxHunter]

CitationMan, the freight on that China Airlines airplane does not originate in the USA. I flew a MD11 from Beijing to Shanghai two weeks ago, US carrier, no local freight=no Cabotage.

 

[merikeyegro]

Beijing to Anchorage to the mainland. I believe that would be an origination in our country and destination in another. Hence, cabotage...

 

[JohnDoe]

quote from GL:

"PS---I remember telling certain cargo folks that due to terrorism concerns etc---there will be no foreign pilots flying for US airlines or flying domestic routes. I was right AGAIN."



Where on earth in that article did it say that they were going to turn it down due to terrorism concerns????? As a matter of fact, it specificly stated that: "With an election coming up, I can't think of any way of Congress changing the law regarding cabotage… " You are giving the politicians waayyy too much credit.

 

[KC-10 Driver]

Simply defined, cabotage is embarking payload, transporting it, and disembarking it in another location -- all in the same country.

It is possible that the China Airlines freighter may indeed stop at Anchorage, then fly on to Nashville. It is only cabotage if the China Airlines freighter picks up payload in Anchorage and delivers it to Nashville.

Perhaps, they drop some cargo at Anchorage, then drop the rest at Nashville? Or perhaps they pick up payload at Anchorage, but transport it all the way back to China? Or, perhaps Anchorage is only a fuel stop? I don't know.

The fact alone that it flies from Anchorage to Nashville with freight onboard does constitute cabotage.

That being said, there was a bill before Congress several months ago which would allow cabotage from Anchorage to the lower 48. Does anyone know if it eventually passed?

If it did pass, then it is possible that cabotage does occur in that market (to which I am opposed, so please don't flame me).

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Oh Yeah, it passed. It was called the Steven's Amendment, I think. Look it up on the ALPA site. It passed because it got the republican vote while most Democrats voted against.

I'm not from Alaska, but I just saw that Steven's guy on TV and Fox News made him look angry and stubborn. He appears to be willing to do what it takes to push his own agenda forward. Any Alaska residents care to fill us in?

 

[Singlecoil]

I'm not from Alaska, but I just saw that Steven's guy on TV and Fox News made him look angry and stubborn. He appears to be willing to do what it takes to push his own agenda forward. Any Alaska residents care to fill us in?

That sounds like Uncle Ted, allright. The number one perveyor of pork in Congress. He brought home $800 in federal money for every man, woman, and child in Alaska last year. He's been in the Senate so long, he gets very defensive at any sort of criticism. He starts ranting about, "Nobody has done more for the state than me, you should be grateful..."

As for the cabotage issue, Mineta is a good public servant. His wife was an ALPA member a long time ago as a flight attendant, and his son was furloughed from Horizon a few years ago, then went to Evergreen to fly DC-9's. Mineta understands the industry from our perspective. A Clinton appointee, he was the only Cabinet member held over from the previous administration (Tenet is not in the Cabinet).

 

[General Lee]

I have said many times on this subject that PAX airlines will not have cabotage in the US. Yes, I know the Stevens Ammendment in ANC allows some foreign cargo carriers to fly some flights from ANC to US cities. But, the thought was that NEXT pax airlines would be targeted. That was my point. I thought terrorism concerns would also not allow it--and that probably is part of the reason why it won't happen here.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flying the Line]

In the Yahoo finance section under INDUSTRY then AIRLINES a couple of weeks ago the was an article that said that "AT THIS TIME the white house was apposed to it (cabotage).

That being said I am still very worried that Cabotage WILL come to this country.

If Bush is re-elected it will be his Olive Branch to Europe to gain support that he has lost over the last two years. I believe this will happen if Bush is re-elected.

Sorry General Lee, I generally agree with you, but not this time. It will.

 

[Freddie Spencer]

General,

Everyday we have foreign airlines flying within the States, what's your point?

 

[FlyingFarmer]

GREAT CEASARS GHOST!!

First of all,

"Freddie Spencer" get your effing front wheel on the ground.
Based on your response to the General, I would imagine
that the only thing you are qualified to say to anyone about anything at this point in your part 61 trained career is-

"no no, keep the power up, look at the horizon, ok fuel on,
mixture on, carb heat on, now now, pitch for altitude, power for airspeed...."

Moron(s), and I'm just kidding around when I say that. I guess I'm just busting a few balls, but C'mon guys! Catfish, Citation Man, you guys HAVE to realize, that cabotage is the next decades most important issue. We have began our trip down the slippery slope with the Krap going on in Alas-ka. If it is allowed to continue, todays MESA wages will be remembered as the good old days when pilots were highly paid. Because..........I'll type slow so you get it. Look to the shipping industry. You know BOATS. There use to be many US companies that operated freighters. Not any more, they all went overseas because over there means cheaper labor. The same thing will happen here. If airlines from foreign countries are allowed to fly into JFK (from freakin tibet, or wherever) then pick up a load of folks, and go to MIA then on to LAX, they will do it. The pilots will be chinese(just as an example) where they make like 3 dollars a day, talk about downward pressure on wages!!!!??? American and Delta will evaporate into the ether, (they probably will anyway) and all we will be hearing on the radio is
"moogah oolah oobbooo-alagahah zoo -zoo"
which means in Tibetanese,
"all of you people are freakin' moronic idiots!"

Wake Up plebes, it's your future!

-FF

 

[Freddie Spencer]

My post was in reference to the terrorists threat and foreign pilots, for some I missed putting Generals quote in the post... Again we have foreign pilots/airlines flying in US airspace every day.

 

[General Lee]

I know Freddie---I see them every week when I fly into JFK. But, what I am trying to say is that there won't be any cheap foreign labor coming into the US to take our jobs, and Aeroflot won't be flying from LAX to LAS for $5 a ticket. That is my point.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[typhoonpilot]

Flying Farmer:

You should know that Chinese Captains make upwards of $30 per day. F.O. s are at $15 per day

Typhoonpilot

 

[iluvetops]

china airlines is from taiwan not china.

they do not pick up any freight from ANC. the tpe-anc-bna-anc-tpe is a dedicated dell computer flight originating in penang, malaysia.

 

[AV8OR]

Flying Farmer's.......

on the money. I think anti-terror will be the only long term card to play on this matter.

 

[JohnDoe]

I'll support "FlyingFarmer's" post as well.


The most important part of that article was the sentence: "With an election coming up, I can't think of any way of Congress changing the law regarding cabotage."

Emphasis on "with an ELECTION coming up"............

GW doesn't want to be held responsible for any more job outsourcing until the election is over, whether it is real or perceived.

In my opinion, this is the single greatest threat to our careers. No, it is not a problem right now, but we need to make sure it never is. Burying your head in the sand and saying it won't happen because of "this" or "that" is the quickest way to ensure that it will become a reality.

 

[TonyC]

Re: Flying Farmer's.......

on the money. I think anti-terror will be the only long term card to play on this matter.

Unfortunately, that card had little effect in preventing cargo cabotage through Anchorage.

In fact, every segment safely completed by a Foreign Flag carrier in the US further weakens the argument that cabotage is a threat to security.

Cabotage is a threat to US jobs, and I don't mean just pilots.

Cabotage is a threat to SAFETY, and I don't mean terrorism. As long as the US has no control over the training and maintenance requirements of foreign carriers, we have no guarantees that the AeroPoloma IL-754 is safe to fly in, or that the pilots that operate it are fit or qualified to safely carry Grandma from Point A to point B.

Both arguments were ignored by Stevens in the specific instance of cargo through Anchorage because the threat to safety was dismissed, and the threat to jobs was viewed as being outweighed by the number of jobs that would be gained JUST IN ANCHORAGE to handle the increased frequencies through Anchorage. If Northwest or FedEx or UPS loses business, that's no biggie to Ted, because he'll at least have a few more rampies in Anchorage -- any unemployment applications would be made in Minneapolis or Memphis or Louisville.

Very shortsighted, in my opinion, but if it turns out to be moderately successful, then it will most definitely be used to bolster the position that cabotage should be allowed throughout the US and for passengers as well. When airline CEOs figure out how to start foreign operations that can do the domestic work for a tenth of the cost, we'll be saying goodbye to US jobs left and right.

General Lee - - as long as passenger cabotage is not occurring in the US, you can claim to be right. But as soon as it starts, you will have always been wrong.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Cabotage is a threat to US jobs, and I don't mean just pilots.

It can also potentially effect management!

Think we're already seeing this with the outsourcing of jobs. Now the current administration wants to open the borders to the south without becoming citizens. This would probably be desired no matter what party is in office.

The main editorial in this month's ATW addresses yet again the issue. One thing that is interesting is there is hardly any discussion of the Far East or from the South. It is usually only in terms of dealing with the Europeons and it appears for now it is still a stalemate.

The three "themes" seem to be cabotage, cutting costs (especially US), and the lines are being blurred with RJ's getting larger. When looking at those three things, the thing that I see is they all revolve around doing things cheaper. Never mind doing things better or be creative, just do it cheaper. Such a defensive way to run a business. I hope I am wrong.