NMB ruling

[charlie2]

The National Mediation Board has ruled that, for the first time in 45 years, ALPA is in dispute.
We have an election! More news to follow.

 

[iflyhigh]

Time to watch US Airways go to the tanker. BK in a couple of years. Pilots will never have a contract, thus never full integrating the airline. Hope nobody planned on flying to China anytime soon. This I am sure is being given back to the government as we speak.

Can anyone say BK 3 in a couple of years.

Suggest everyone get the resumes ready and beat the masses.

 

[PCL_128]

And the destruction of USAir has begun! I just feel sorry for the AWA pilots. The East guys deserve to lose their jobs after this mess, but the West guys didn't ask for any of this. It's a shame that their company will be destroyed because of a bunch of mental toddlers on the East coast.

 

[ferlo]

The East guys are nothing but scabs. This is nothing but a paper thin veil of an attempt to grab seats that would have never, ever belonged to them. There is no difference between crossing a picket line and trying to force, by simple scab majority, an entire airline into servitude. The legal questions have not even begun to be asked yet. By the time the East finds out they have no legal legs to stand on, it will be too late.

If anybody thinks USAPA can deliver on any of their empty promises, they're crazy. USAPA promises everything but will end up destroying what's left of their pathetic careers.

The list will still be the list. Period.The end. no discussion.

 

[Doug Parker]

.





If you can't say somethig nice................






.

 

[~~~^~~~]

An unfortunate chapter in the history of our profession being written now.

ALPA seems to have learned a lesson and is working hard to keep the DAL/NWA thing on the rails.

 

[B-atch]

The way I see it, this east/west marriage will never work-out. Too much bad blood. Possible scenario. Industry wide consolidation begins. SouthWest has publicly stated that they would not sit idle while others combine. Seeing that AW is SW biggest competitor on the west coast, wouldn't it make sense for them to put a bid on AW. US Airways would now be be parted into more marketable pieces. The East gets all the Airbuses and the West gets all the 73s. I think this would work. After all the PHX base benefits no one better that SW......just my 2C.

 

[Dude]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but are the easties really scabs? Seriously, those guys are upset and have been on the semi-lubricated side of mgmt for years. I guess now they are just trying to control what little of their destiny is yet to be determined.

I am not justifying either side. Ha, that's funny, sides is the last thing anyone should be considering. It should be all or nothing, but that lies only in the world Buffett sings about. Sad state of affairs. But scabs they are not.

 

[Saluki Dawg]

The way I see it, this east/west marriage will never work-out. Too much bad blood. Possible scenario. Industry wide consolidation begins. SouthWest has publicly stated that they would not sit idle while others combine. Seeing that AW is SW biggest competitor on the west coast, wouldn't it make sense for them to put a bid on AW. US Airways would now be be parted into more marketable pieces. The East gets all the Airbuses and the West gets all the 73s. I think this would work. After all the PHX base benefits no one better that SW......just my 2C.

The only problem with that scenario is that we really don't need much of what AW would bring. We would however, along with every other airline BTW like the Shuttle, the gates at LGA, DCA, BOS, and some of CLT. The only thing on the West side of the house that we would probably want is the remaining gates in Terminal 1 at LAX and maybe the rest of the gates in the Terminal we share in SFO. If any of those assets are ever in play, I'm sure we'd be very interested. Somehow though, unless there is a 3rd BK, I doubt that any of those things would come to fruition.

 

[ultrarunner]

In the end, the Nic award will stand no matter what union represents the pilots on the east list. If the east pilots think otherwise, they really are not that smart.

At some point the AW pilots will tire of this, and demand the list be immediately integrated, a contract put in place, and life goes on.

 

[ironspud]

I don't have a dog in this fight

Wish that friggin dog would die.

 

[Caveman]

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly was ruled on?I'm up to speed on the whole Airways/AWA debacle as far as the Nicolau ruling, East stonewalling and the ALPA decert effort. What exactly just happened with this ruling and what does it mean?

 

[charlie2]

There will finally be a vote (in a few weeks I think) on decertifying ALPA.

 

[michael707767]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but are the easties really scabs?

No. Lots of folks use that name when it does not really apply. I do however, think the easties are a bunch of greedy SOBs who are trying to get something they don't deserve. They are also a bunch of welchers, who said they would abide by the arbitrators ruling and are now going back on their word. DOH is not in ALPA policy. Period. They knew it and yet still insisted on DOH or something close to it. I think the arbitrator ruling was pretty fair. Not perfect, no. But within the bounds of ALPA merger policy.

My only hope is all this turmoil does not ruin the careers any any AWA pilots. They deserve better.

 

[Lowrider717]

From the document..." the Board finds a dispute to exist.. An internet and telephone election is hearby authorized with a cutoff date of November 13, 2007"

Is this a bogus document, a typo ? What am I missing?

 

[m80drvr]

No. Lots of folks use that name when it does not really apply. I do however, think the easties are a bunch of greedy SOBs who are trying to get something they don't deserve. They are also a bunch of welchers, who said they would abide by the arbitrators ruling and are now going back on their word. DOH is not in ALPA policy. Period. They knew it and yet still insisted on DOH or something close to it. I think the arbitrator ruling was pretty fair. Not perfect, no. But within the bounds of ALPA merger policy.

My only hope is all this turmoil does not ruin the careers any any AWA pilots. They deserve better.[/quote]


Too late I'm afraid!!!!!!!

 

[filejw]

I don't see how anybody could expect anything else from the the East. When 22 years of loyal ALPA membership gets you like 6 yrs seniority that's just poor policy on ALPA's part.

 

[Doug Parker]

I don't see how anybody could expect anything else from the the East. When 22 years of loyal ALPA membership gets you like 6 yrs seniority that's just poor policy on ALPA's part.

No, that's management's fault - and the pilot's fault for sticking around thru 2 BK's...........all the smart ones left - so guess what we're stuck with???






.

 

[Turtle21]

What exactly just happened with this ruling and what does it mean?

The Board finds a dispute to exist in NMB case NC. R-7147 Among the pilots of US Airways, INC presently represented by ALPA. An Internet and telephone election is hereby authorized using the cut-off date of November 13, 2007

Pursuant to section 12.1 of the NMB Representation manual, the carrier is hereby required to furnish, within 5 calendar days 1 X 2 5/8 peel-off labels bearing the alphabetized names and current addresses of those employees on the list of potential eligible voters. The carrier must print the same sequence number from the list of potential eligible voters beside each voter's name on the address label. The carrier must ensure that the board receives the labels within 5 calendar days.

This means that there will be an election to determine what union represents the pilots of USAir. All the pilots of USAir will soon participate in a secret ballot to determine which group will serve as the bargaining agent, ALPA or USAPA.

Many pilots are confused and assume the election is about Nic. Strictly speaking though, the election will not change the Nic award. But the majority of those who support USAPA have always understood that the decert effort never was about Nic in the first place.

The cutoff date of November 13, 2007 is not a date relative to the election to be conducted, but is rather a date related to who is eligible to vote. All pilots hired after November 13th last year will be ineligible to vote.

The election should probably happen in early to mid March with a count announced before the end of April.

 

[vetrider]

But the majority of those who support USAPA have always understood that the decert effort never was about Nic in the first place.

Nah, the nic is peripheral, its all about putting the westies "in their place." Same difference.

 

[Turtle21]

Nah, the nic is peripheral, its all about putting the westies "in their place." Same difference.

While there are various groups or individuals who seek to play the victim, none should flatter themselves that they can engender even a tenth of the resolve that ALPA national is capable of producing.

 

[TWA Dude]

Many pilots are confused and assume the election is about Nic.

I disagree; I think very few pilots are confused about this. Had the Easties been happy with the arbitration decision there wouldn't be an election. Where there is confusion is about how being in the majority can and cannot affect pre-existing contract terms. The U-SAPs seem to think they can just vote away the Transition Agreement and impose DOH/LOS on us. That'll be just one of many rude surprises if USAPA prevails.

www.USAPA.org

 

[luckytohaveajob]

I hope this effort puts ALPA in its place. ALPA National and the local ALPA's have misrepresented the members.

ALPA needs to pay the price for its neglect.

Who's next for a decert? Who ever fails to represent the majority of its local members.

The days of special interest, screw the majority, because we, ALPA MEC and National, know best are ending.

 

[FLYLOW22]

SCABs? Hardly.

Please reread from Merriam's.

scab

Pronunciation:
\ˈskab\
Function: a contemptible person b (1): a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2): a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3): a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4): one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms



East pilots SCABs? No.

Unhappy? Yes.

Understandably? Well, that is the debate.

The East is doing what it feels it must to deal with the abortion style of representation ALPA (once again) provided to 2 of it's pilot groups in this beginning wave of Airline Consolidation Part 2. (Wave 1 being from 87-91).

ALPA F'd up majorly and now everyone is caught in a trick bag.

My opinion from the outside (THANK GOD ALMIGHTY): The Nic Award was too harsh. For the good of everyone at US Airways (EAST and WEST), step up and find another alternative together. It will take sacrifice. It will take balls. It will take big boy talk.

The alternative is destruction. This rift will continue to resonate through the company until they permanently damage the integrity of the operation. The big money will pull it's funding and sell out.

As a former East Pilot (THANK GOD) I can see the East and West point of view.

East: "The Nic Award is far from fair so I'd rather bury this company than hand away my seniority and work for a company I gave my pay and retirement too. It's my last chance anyway. I'd rather go out in flames fighting."

West: "What? The arbitrator ruled. Sure, it's in my favor but it's the law."

The truth is that both sides could agree that continuing down the current path is a mistake and agree to throw out the award then come up with another alternative. Again, absent something else besides Nic, I see liquidation.... finally.

What do both sides want?

A good deal for the West pilots isn't that good of a deal if it causes the company to implode in civil war.

There are 10 solutions to every problem. You need only to find one... or the best one to solve the issue.

No, not everyone will be happy if Nic is thrown out. Fewer are happy now. In fact, they are so UNhappy that they are willing to burn it.

Just my view from the outside guys.

You are in a nose dive. Will anyone take the controls?

Good luck. I'll be reading USA Today to see what happens.

 

[vetrider]

The Readers Digest version of FLYLOW's post is "give em what they want or the place blows up." No matter how those guys try to pretty it up, that's pretty much the message. Yeah, they aren't scabs, but.....

 

[ferlo]

I don't see how anybody could expect anything else from the the East. When 22 years of loyal ALPA membership gets you like 6 yrs seniority that's just poor policy on ALPA's part.

Perhaps then, just for arguments sake, they shouldn't have pinned their hopes on BINDING ARBITRATION!! ALPA has exactly nothing to do with this. This was caused by their own MEC, and the general arrogance of their pilot group.

Again, ALPA national had ZERO INFLUENCE on what happened after Nic. made the award. Zero. That's just B.S. USAPA rhetoric.

 

[iflyhigh]

I am not a fan of ALPA, but to say all the East problems are ALPA fault is incorrect.

To say ALPA should represent which ever group is bigger is not right. Everyone pays dues and should be represented fairly. If ALPA represented the larger of groups in a major, expect UAL and DAL to win out in mergers.

Alot of people seem to think that with a new union comes a new seniority list. What they forget about is management. The award had been submitted and accepted by management. For them to throw out the award and accept something else could/would result in West guys suing. Lawyers and Judges know this.

The only way the seniority lists will be changed if not by law, is by East and West agreeing to some fences. I highly doubt that the West will accept fences on all narrowbody and widebody captain, except E190, for the next 10 years.

 

[TWA Dude]

West: "What? The arbitrator ruled. Sure, it's in my favor but it's the law."

Better remove those quotation marks because nobody from the West said it's in our favor. The perception that the Nicolau Award favors the West is only because the (unrealistic) expectations of the East were so high. Nicolau chose an integration that was closer to our request because it was more reasonable. Have you read the Award? Nicolau explains his reasoning thoroughly and there's no "harshness" in it. PM me if you'd like a Word version of the Award.

Oh, and how exactly did ALPA "F" up? Everybody knew what ALPA Merger Policy was and nobody complained about it until one side didn't get what they wanted.

 

[PCL_128]

I don't see how anybody could expect anything else from the the East. When 22 years of loyal ALPA membership gets you like 6 yrs seniority that's just poor policy on ALPA's part.

You seem to have a problem understanding the difference between seniority and longevity. Longevity does not equal seniority.

 

[fam62c]

I don't see how anybody could expect anything else from the the East. When 22 years of loyal ALPA membership gets you like 6 yrs seniority that's just poor policy on ALPA's part.

This in not ALPA's fault. This is what can happen when you roll the dice with binding arbitration. Anybody who thinks they can "game" an arbitration and guess what an arbitrator will do is crazy, this has been proven over and over again. USAirways can vote in any union they want and it won't overturn the arbitration. This will keep the lawyers busy for years and, in the end, the East guys will be no better off. This merger is going to end in a bloody trainwreck. At least there was a lesson learned from this and NWA/DAL won't go down the same path.