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NJA TA-lies or does the truth just change?

ELLAY

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I finally had to let sail an email of a different shade. Many people have been reading the threads and posts over these last few years of "negotiations" and there have been the occasional voices of reasons that quietly point out what we should all be working towards. Most of us know that we are blessed in life too....
So. What about the owners of our company--our REAL employers that sit in the back seats of our respective aircraft? They are the company we really work for. NJA does not own anything except a brand, a logo, a long-term lease on a big hangar in CMH, a lease on a building in Okatie, SC., and some consumable office supplies... "Our" airplanes are owned by the folks that sit in the back, just like any corporate job. We owe it to them to remain a fiscally sound group that provides professional, efficient, enjoyable, and safe transport. Service is all we’ve got to sell. All these airplanes with matching paint schemes will remain---and there will always be a group of qualified individuals willing to operate them. RTS has always felt that many of the NJA folks were woefully underpaid. The union folks would NEVER let that sentiment escape out onto the mean streets of dis-information. RTS could also never give us a 100 percent raise either. NO ONE would work for another fractional provider, it would cease all growth within this industry, and the people that can afford to buy/buy into turbine aircraft would just create their own smaller time-share/managed aircraft DBA’s. Be thoughtful, be considerate to others, consider truth. Is it fair to all concerned? Will it build a better relationship and create additional good will? And will it be beneficial to all concerned?

And finally, consider how much we all enjoy the level of “service” that we all suffer through as we commute on the airlines to and from work. That same level of airline service guarantees us job security…for now.
 

Equal Time

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ELLAY,
Thank you for a post that brings a level of personal responsibility and thought to our career. We certainly are wired to want to blame everyone else (RTS,BB,NJI,NJA,IBT,MEC,MOLES,etc..) and think that "they're" out to screw us.
While I acknowledge that it does help sometimes to vent in forums like this, I choose to believe the majority of people in aviation are good people that wouldn't say half the things that we see in print here.
The truth in my humble opinion is that when it comes to actually doing our job, we all want to do our best and that we do understand that the folks we're flying need to feel good about they're product or they'll go elswhere.
Hopefully, most of the people you meet in this business are conducting themselves professionally and with a sense of pride in their job.
Cheers,
ET

Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are; your reputation is merely what others think you are.
--John Wooden

While we may not be able to control all that happens to us, we can control what happens inside us.
--Benjamin Franklin
 

pilotman121

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Nja

Where do those guys come from? Mars or Venus!
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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ELLAY,

You are negotiating with NJA thru your representation, not the owners in the back.....

Who has operational control. Who writes your paycheck?
 

Guitar Guy

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Rez O. Lewshun said:
Who has operational control.

Depending on the type of operation (91, 91K or 135), it could be the owner in the back or NetJets. :cool:
 

Diesel

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Did someone just read Dianetics by L. Ron Hubard?
 

FLYLOW22

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Rez O. Lewshun said:
Who has operational control. Who writes your paycheck?

Operational control you say?

Small exerpt from the NJA FOM...

The Vice President Flight Operation/Director of Operarions has overall responsibiloty for operational control and has authorized the persons listed in FOM 1.11 to exercise operational control over program and non-program flights under their supervision, as outllined below.

91K flights: the share owner and NJA are jointly responsible.

My paycheck is signed by NetJets. We couldn't fit 3000 individual signatures on each check.
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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FLYLOW22 said:
Operational control you say?


91K flights: the share owner and NJA are jointly responsible.

What does this mean from a liability view point....
 

Guitar Guy

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Rez O. Lewshun said:
What does this mean from a liability view point....

I'm not a lawyer, so you'll have to seek out an attorney about the liability issue. I do know that earlier this year, owners had to make a decision regarding operating under Part 91K or Part 135 and some chose Part 135, based off of legal advice from their own counsel. But when the flight is operating under FAR Part 91K, we add a brief to the passengers that includes something along the lines of "...this flight is under the operational control of (insert shareholder's name) but will be flown NetJets Aviation, Inc..."
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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Guitar Guy said:
I'm not a lawyer, so you'll have to seek out an attorney about the liability issue. I do know that earlier this year, owners had to make a decision regarding operating under Part 91K or Part 135 and some chose Part 135, based off of legal advice from their own counsel. But when the flight is operating under FAR Part 91K, we add a brief to the passengers that includes something along the lines of "...this flight is under the operational control of (insert shareholder's name) but will be flown NetJets Aviation, Inc..."

Well, and that is my point from the original post. Sure you'll provide excellent customer service to your owners...

But when it comes to paychecks, work rules, CVR/FDR protection etc, it begins and ends with NetJets managements, BB and Santuli.....
 

Guitar Guy

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Rez O. Lewshun said:
Well, and that is my point from the original post. Sure you'll provide excellent customer service to your owners...

But when it comes to paychecks, work rules, CVR/FDR protection etc, it begins and ends with NetJets managements, BB and Santuli.....

"Work rules, paychecks and CVR/FDR protection" are all part of the proposed TA. In the end, however, it's not just NetJets management, BB and RTS who define those items, but also the union membership who vote to ratify or reject the TA.

Your original post had 2 items at the end: "Who has operational control. Who writes your paycheck?" You say my post makes your point - what was your point? NetJets does not always have complete operational control of a flight if that flight is under 91K. As for paychecks, I'm not certain what your point is.

Please elaborate.
 
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Rez O. Lewshun

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Guitar Guy said:
"Work rules, paychecks and CVR/FDR protection" are all part of the proposed TA. In the end, however, it's not just NetJets management, BB and RTS who define those items, but also the union membership who vote to ratify or reject the TA.

Your original post had 2 items at the end: "Who has operational control. Who writes your paycheck?" You say my post makes your point - what was your point? NetJets does not always have complete operational control of a flight if that flight is under 91K. As for paychecks, I'm not certain what your point is.

Please elaborate.

I was refering to the first post in this thread. The author was advocating taking energy away from union/management focusing on the owners. The owners do not have operational control. They tell the pilot where to fly the jet via Netjets management. NJA pilots don't bargain thier TA with the owners.

The only energy that should be focused on the owners is excellent customer service. Which you do.

I fear this thread is going to "split hairs" mode.....
 

Guitar Guy

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Rez O. Lewshun said:
I was refering to the first post in this thread. The author was advocating taking energy away from union/management focusing on the owners. The owners do not have operational control. They tell the pilot where to fly the jet via Netjets management. NJA pilots don't bargain thier TA with the owners.

The only energy that should be focused on the owners is excellent customer service. Which you do.

I fear this thread is going to "split hairs" mode.....

While it has been pointed out that the owners can sometimes be the ones in operational control, I agree with the "split hairs" comment.

Personally, I never witnessed any situation where any negative energy was focused on an owner by a crewmember. It will be interesting to see what the reaction, mood and customer service are like after the TA is ratified, assuming that it is.

Our DO spoke to our recurrent class the day after the news came out about the company backing away on part of the agreement on scope/NJI. He was very focused on getting pilots involved in joint company/pilot operational improvement groups in post-TA era. It was interesting to hear our DO so emphatic that a solution would be found to scope/NJI logjam and that the TA was going to pass. Of course, he has a very vested interest in getting relations between the company and pilots smoothed out.
 
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Hogprint

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The focus should not be on what the pilots can do. We have been giving great service through this whole process.

The focus needs to be on what Owner Service can do to make things better. The CYA that is endemic of OS is where the complaints from owners are generated. Look at the surveys. Pilots over the four year period have never dropped below 97-98%. OS was significantly lower in owner confidence.

When we (the company as a whole) are ready to address this, then and only then will we really turn the corner on owner relations.
 

wolfpackpilot

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Hog,

You are correct. OS will tell an owner just about anything to get them off the phone. (Like 11 people with golf bags, personal bags, 2 meals, etc. etc. will fit in the back of plane just fine).

Im waiting for an external stores pylons to be added to the wings in the near future.
 

Guitar Guy

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If the pilot/management cooperation teams come to fruition, maybe OS will improve. I have also heard from owners that they enjoy the pilots and hate the lies from OS. Hopefully OS can realize that a polite reasonable "no, you can't carry semi-tractor trailer full of skiing equipment in an Ultra" is actually better than lying to the owners only to have them discover the truth at the FBO.:rolleyes:
 
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