nja pilots vs market wages

[flyingcpa]

would someone please explain to me why so many netjet pilots believe they are so abused and underpaid? Did they all come from a former communist country and no one explained supply and demand. I just had this talk with my 14 yr old girl so I will try it with you guys (and gals) The price of labor is based on supply and demand. If someone is willing and capable to do your job for what you are getting paid you are going to have a difficult time getting more money. Like it or not that is what you are worth and not a dime more. Yes, you can pull the collective threat to quit (aka as a strike) at the same time to force higher than market wages. Airline pilots have had success doing this but your customers have alternatives such as buying there own plane. When enough pilots quit and netjets have a hard time filling the seats, nj will have to raise salaries because of market forces. Its really that simple. You dont have to like it or agree with me but that is the way it is.

 

[flyingcpa]

Its not my or your opion that matters, in the end its market forces. If you want an education on econ 101 try a local communtity college in your area. Its really not that hard to understand. But, I am curious. Explain to me why you should be paid more than someone else that is qualified, able and willing to do your current job? Again, I explained this to my 8th grade daughter and used mowing yards as an example of market forces. Please dont make me use lawn mowing on you, tell me you understand?

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Griz,

People read these threads and respond because they are interested (or bored.) Remeber, you are posting on a public board! You sure seem proud of when you joined this place - that seems to be your answer to everything. Kinda paranoid sounding. Trolls - is that kindergarten? Casting out lots of opinions and insults...I sure hope you're young, rich and good looking, cause you aint making it on personality. Hopefully this is just your 'on-line' personality - wouldn't want you to bust a vein, kick the dog, or be next to me on a PRM - chill a bit.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Well, OK then.



Maybe I'm just jealous...nobody's called me a troll from NetJet management...yet...



I can only speak for myself, as a professional pilot for 25 years, I've seen a lot of changes in the industry and the workforce - the biggest of which has been the introduction of the fractionals. It all affects all of us, and from watching the discussions on this contract, it appears that a lot of folks have put a lot of thought into it. It's certainly not my battle and I don't profess to know half the story, however, I'm sure you all will make a smart, educated decision and I wish you the best.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I agree.

Sounds like a troll just showing up and busting your chops.

Thanks for the ECON 101 lesson, you like kicking a guy in the balls when he is down?

I certainly dont think the NJ guys have much of a fight here, but this is their future they are trying to fight for, and it might help many younger guys down the line...if only a little bit..and thats good.

Have a little respect and wish them "Best of Luck" or just keep your mouth shut.....

 

[flyingcpa]

A person that signed up this month that wants to tell me how I'm lucky to have whatever crappy TA comes my way deserves neither my respect nor any serious consideration. As long as they keeping popping up with new screen names, I'll keep calling em out.


GRIZ,
Emotions are sure running high. All I am saying is the market will take care of this. If Netjets proposed a below market wage for pilots it will fail. I assume you think that the ta is below market wages. If you are correct the pilots will demand more for there services and will get it. Do you think that either side will get something other than "what the market will bear?" Someone would have to explain to me how a company can pay below market wages. Wouldnt they run out of employees? At the same time it is difficult (not impossible) for a collective bargaining unit to get higher than market wages. Do you really disagree?

 

[Schrode]

Actually, in a way I see your point. But, can't you see that the 1900 pilots of NetJets ARE part of the market you speak of? And WE SAY the pay is way too low.

Many have come come here thinking the pay is "okay" then after working here realized what our work load and working conditions were like. After this realization, most agree: We are underpaid for what we do at NetJets. This is not some childish demand for an unearned entitlement . . . it is a request (now a demand) for fair compensation for what we do.

If you disagree, come work here for 6 months and tell me you disagree. Until you do that, you are not qualified to tell us the market will not bear our request for a fair wage. This is part of the problem with this industry, people just want to work at a company or industry without respect of others trying to make a living there and are willing to take a job for peanuts. Then after six months they see the light and are just as mad at the "new guys".

 

[flyingcpa]

If you disagree, come work here for 6 months and tell me you disagree. Until you do that, you are not qualified to tell us the market will not bear our request for a fair wage


I have no idea what the market will bear. I also dont have a clue as to what you are asking (demanding) for wages. Therefore, I havent disagreed with anyone. where is all this frustration and anger at your company coming from? I too have jobs that I thought management were scum bags and my pay was too low. (try working for firestone) But good ol supply and demand came through and got me a better job. My wife is a nurse, talk about overworked and underpaid!!! but so many nurses have left the field in disgust that wages have been going up. I love flying and am envious of your jobs but I like money more. Maybe some day I can take the finacial hit and come work for a charter/frac company but Im guessing that is the problem. At the end of the day too many people wanting to fly for a living and do so too cheap.

 

[x402]

Can we all say 'Flat Tax" and quit wasting billions on CPA's and Attys.

 

[philo beddoe]

Here is what I do not understand,


I would guess that NJA pilots would have more collective power than an airline pilot group because:

#1 Public opinion - Mr. Joe Average could care less if some rich turkey has no one to fly his jet for a few weeks. After all, Mr. Average flies on the airlines, so he is not affected.

#2 No alternative - What are the NJA share owners going to do while you are out on strike? Fly the airlines, I guess. They may squeeze NJA management to settle. Perhaps NJA management will have to reduce their cut in order to up the pay without raising prices too much.


I will admit that I know very little about the frac biz, but I hope you guys press hard for significant improvements.

It would be at least one part of this profession that is gaining rather than losing.

 

[netjetwife]

And the prize goes to....

My wife is a nurse, talk about overworked and underpaid!!! but so many nurses have left the field in disgust that wages have been going up.

Flyingcpa, I have isolated this part of your post because it is the most important, relevant thing you said. What a great analogy for the situation at NJA! Both labor groups have the same problem, and are solving it the same way---by taking a stand. Disgusted people are not quiet--they are very angry and outspoken. It goes back to the old saying that the squeaky wheel gets the oil/grease.


One more quote...."tell me you understand?"....

 

[AA717driver]

Can we all say 'Flat Tax" and quit wasting billions on CPA's and Attys.

Good one 402! That line always scares the pi$$ outta the CPA's. Then THEY get to wear the coveted orange apron... TC

 

[CRAWDADDY]

Much as I delight in this academic rag chewing and Classical Liberalism, you have to consider that there are a lot of non-market forces at play here.
Consider 2: the seniority system that keeps pilots from migrating to the highest paying jobs because any move (except perhaps from here) will involve a pay cut that will take several years to recover from.
Then we have the chicanery and outright lies from both parties at the table that assured us that everthing would be set right. Consequently, a lot of people didn't look elsewhere.



Columbus Approach, CATFISH 824 is 'on board' at FL410

 

[CRAWDADDY]

Can we all say 'Flat Tax" and quit wasting billions on CPA's and Attys.

Never happen because the politicians and CPAs derive so much power from manipulating the tax code. Nevertheless, it's fun to fantacize about what the market for them would do.


Columbus Approach, CATFISH 824 is 'on board' at FL410

 

[flyingcpa]

I actually am for a flat tax!!! I would vote for for Mr Forbes in a flash. It would hurt the accounting business. Instead of bitching about it I would find another career. I always come back to the supply and demand. Maybe I would be a therapist for upset pilots, I have a huge headstart on potential customers!!

 

[H25BCPTN]

I will try and answer your question about pilots wanting to make fair wages with regards to supply and demand. First I want to say that I do not fly for NetJets nor would I ever fly for them.

Lets take a look at the issue of supply. The supply of pilots presently looking for a job are on furlough, have lower flight time, and would only take the job until a better job came along. I do not know of one pilot that would work for NetJets as a captain making only $55,000 a year with the experience level of the average captain at NetJets. The few pilots that might take the job would not have the experience level or might only take the job until they can go back to AA.

The demand for quality high time pilots does exist out in the market place. It is lower then it has been in years past but if a NetJets Captain wanted to find a job making a little more money and less work then he or she could. Most pilots at NetJets stay because they believe that with a few adjustments that they can have a great career with NetJets. I think it is great dedication that the pilots are willing to tough it out and stay but if it can't be done then I guess they should start looking elsewhere.

Lets put the pay into perspective.

$55,000 a year.

Working 24 weeks a year.

12 Hour duty days.

2,016 Hours of work each year.

$27.28 Per Hour.

One might not be working all this time but it is time away from the family and you can't sit down and have a beer to watch the game.

I am also not trying to put down any pilots that are having a hard time trying to find a job. I pray that we all will have a great job and the market will turn to create even higher demand for our services.

Fly Safe

 

[Publishers]

work

Far better to get $75,000 per year, work 50 weeks a year, be totally responsible for the aircraft, seeing that maintenance gets done, all trip planning, all restock of aircraft, holidays always away, doing everything required whenever the company schedules the aircraft.

 

[H25BCPTN]

"Far better to get $75,000 per year, work 50 weeks a year, be totally responsible for the aircraft, seeing that maintenance gets done, all trip planning, all restock of aircraft, holidays always away, doing everything required whenever the company schedules the aircraft."

Publishers, you really are clueless.

 

[Publishers]

corporate

There are a bunch of pilots who do exactly what I said and are happy to have the job. You point out how clueless I am but I have been deeply involved in many of these companies, understand the economics and differences, and have served as a consultant to many management and pilot groups.

You want the fixed days off, the outbases, the services of operations, and you trade those quality of life issues for money to some extent.

The average corporate or 135 pilot might like to have those problems when he has a beeper and has to be able to be wheels up in an hour.