NJ Posters .....

[old*art]

This is an open request to all NJA pilots posting here. Please stop "rising to the bait" with the acrimonious posts made here by unknown people. The words are just as infuriating to me in our present struggle, but other than making one feel good by posting a flaming response, at the least it is doing us no good and at worst is hurting our cause with the other genuine people who post here or - even worse - read these boards and never post their concerns. I suspect even some of the posters claiming to be NJA pilots ( or related to NJA in other capacities) - are truly not, and may have even been recruited by the company to come here and stir up controversy. (If that be true this is truly a sad place to work. I would have to leave if I found it to be true.) A more likely explanation is pilots feeling damaged in the past by the fractional industry are just trying to return the favor now under the guise of a NJ pilot. Or disgruntled employees who have been abused by the few bad apples we do have - and yes we have some - as everyone does.
It is time for us to show some restraint and a little class. We - not the shiny airplanes - are the NJ product and are in total control of this process - and in being a process, it is just going to take time. Any one who has ever been to court or had to put a big business deal together knows how agonizing slow these processes are - especially when they are confrontational - as this one has justifialby become. I am no smarter than anyone here - just a little older than most and seen these events before. Some have the patience for it - others do not - but that changes nothing. I personally do not recognize any of the more hostile NJ posters here as anyone I may have had in the seat next to be - I am not saying they are not ... it is just not the type of NJ pilot I know. For those of you reading these posts, please remember there are over 2200 NJA pilots and the true ones posting here do not speak for them any more than I am now. By and large they are a great group of pilots who are still trying to do their jobs in trying times.
At the risk of sounding melodramatic, this is truly a watershed time in aviation pay and we definitely have the correct leadership in place to prevail. The glass is only half empty if all you are trying to do is drink from it - it is half full if you are giving and trying to fill it. Most of the NJA pilots are trying to fill the glass for everyone in aviation - not just themselves. NJ can afford to pay the pilots the compensation they have earned - but that is a discussion for another thread.
In closing - I will repeat my opening plea. It is going to get a lot uglier before it is over, so please forgo the brief satisfaction a flame reply here gives - understanding one may actually be being used. Look how they quoted the "kick 'em in the ass till their nose bleeds" statement made by a pilot and used it against us. Time for "class" folks, and not giving them any cheap ammo to use against us. I also will not be replying to flame posts to this thread or any other - regardless of the accusations - on this board until our contract is settled - and maybe not even then. Fly safe and have fun.

 

[ghostrider64]

Agreed we could also agree to not battle with those here that are really stirring the pot with their vast knowledge and experience in aviation...who wouldn't know rvsm or NATS or how much a gallon of jet A weighs...Or even better...doesn't know how it smells

 

[Fozzy]

bump.

 

[netjetwife]

Excellent post! I would just like to add a bit more info on one point. I understood that the "kick them" quote was made by a TEAMSTERS member other than a pilot, and was only quoted/referred to by our pilot in a report that mentioned the meeting. The entire statement was distorted by the company in their blatant attempt to discredit the leadership of the NJ pilots. It was never more than a figurative example of resolve and determination.

A RISING TIDE SHOULD LIFT ALL BOATS

PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS THAT SHOULD BE COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY

 

[ProFracPilot]

Excellent post! I would just like to add a bit more info on one point. I understood that the "kick them" quote was made by a TEAMSTERS member other than a pilot, and was only quoted/referred to by our pilot in a report that mentioned the meeting. The entire statement was distorted by the company in their blatant attempt to discredit the leadership of the NJ pilots. It was never more than a figurative example of resolve and determination.

NJW-

While I believe your statement to be true, the history of the Teamsters would certainly lead the uninformed public to assume the "kick them" comment was intended in the literal sense. Comments like these have been and continue to be one of the biggest problems with labor organizers, especially the Teamsters. It only takes one vitriolic rant such as the one cited above to do irrepairable damage to labor's credibility, especially in this arena.
Some of us who don't yet have a dog in this fight, while we're fully supportive of NJA's pilots, are still not all warm and fuzzy with the thought of IBT representation.

Old*art-

I know that many of the emotional, impassioned responses to the "bait" on this board are not made by NJA pilots, but are actually posted by the same people who post the bait. These trolls are doing all they can to paint the NJA pilots in a bad light and will resort to the lowest of tactics to do so. The labor organizers need to find the high road, take it and stay on it.

Just my .02

Pfp

 

[old*art]

Thanks for your comments ... becoming a Teamster was one of the most difficult decisions of my life, but this company has shown me why they exist.

 

[2000flyer]

From the outside looking in...

Just an observation and certainly not intended to inflame an already volatile situation. I'll be the first to admit I don't know what your contract says, nor exactly (other than what I've read on this board and others) what your asking for. That being said, personally I feel you're long overdue for a raise. However, some problems I take away from reading all these messages:

Most of the NJA pilots are trying to fill the glass for everyone in aviation - not just themselves.

• I have a hard time swallowing this statement. I'm sure there are a few NJ pilot's who feel that by NJ raising the salary bar, it will trickle to other fractionals. "Most" is a dramatic over statement. When I interviewed with NJ all the conversation in and out of the interview were "how much do I make?" "How much time do I have off? "What are MY benefits?

I have never held a job where I take a pay raise by saying, thinking or feeling that I've personally helped all other segments salary issues. A byproduct of my salary may be a benefit for others but I have never asked for a pay raise "to help others earn more" in a given industry.

We - not the shiny airplanes - are the NJ product and are in total control of this process.

• I can see you're reasoning behind this statement, but in fact you are a piece in the product. Granted, airplanes don't fly themselves and without the pilot, you don't have a product. In order to complete the mission NetJets is designed for (by practice and regulation), you need dispatchers, mechanics, admin staff, and so many others. I think that is one of the most negative aspects I've walked away with in this argument is the over abundance of emotional pragmatism that "you can't do it without ME!" (You tell us it "can't be done without me" but "we want a fair salary for YOU?") There, unfortunate as it may make you feel, you are flat wrong. Behind you are hundreds if not thousands of pilots who would jump at the opportunity be in your seat. A CFI making $15,000 a year would leap over tall fences to make $28,000 flying "shiny jets." Many would accuse them of dragging down the industry for low wages. They see it as a nearly 100% salary increase!

Your management knows this and it's unfortunate that they use it as an argument against you. I don't pretend to know the true reason the pilot group is falling short of getting a raise. From reading other posts on this very board, I can only guess it's not the fact you want a raise, but it's the amount of raise you want. Some time ago it was mentioned on this board that desired raises were in the 50-100% range. I don't know if that is what was asked for or desired. I do know during my interview several years ago statements by the pilots were "six figures by year five," and "a starting salary" that was nearly 100% more than the current figure at that time. I, and several of my interview class, walked away with the impression this was what the pilot group was demanding. While you walk away feeling warm and fuzzy with those kinds of numbers, truth be told, I never fully believed it would come to pass. Everyone groans when we read of professional athletes who make $500,000 under their current contract. They have one exceptional year and suddenly demand a new contract worth millions. NetJets has had several financially successful years, no doubt. If I were a pilot there, I would see more success in negotiations asking for increases spread over the term of the contract, rather than demanding the lump sum on day one.

In conclusion let me make one think very clear: It is MY firm belief that the pilot group at NJ deserves a salary increase. This post, as titled, is from an outsider looking in. It is not my intent to pass judgement. Nor is it to sing the praises of or trash any NJ pilot. I only see one side of the argument from reading this board and talking to you at the FBO's. I'll probably receive grief and flame for this post but as you so eloquently said,

but other than making one feel good by posting a flaming response, at the least it is doing us no good and at worst is hurting our cause with the other genuine people who post

Honestly, I wish you all the best of luck in your negotiations. I just find your argument "we're doing it for you" a little hard to swallow.

Sincerely,
2000Flyer

PS - No, I'm not a disgruntled person who was turned down for employment at NJ. I was, in fact, hired but chose another opportunity.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

A RISING TIDE SHOULD LIFT ALL BOATS

PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS THAT SHOULD BE COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY

Then why hasn't our (91/135) rising tide raised your boat? Our salaries have gone up substantially in the past several years. There are more of us then there are of you. We are already "compensated accordingly".

I just don't get your logic: If raising the salaries of thousands of pilots (us) didn't raise yours, why do you thing that raising yours will raise everyone elses?

Ace

 

[El Chupacabra]

Ask H2,

He claims our low pay has hurt corporate and 135 salaries... while even closing flight departments.

Cheers,

 

[Hawkered]

Small companies always compare what they're offering to avoid losing their training costs and staff to large corporations. If NJA gets a big raise, the whole industry will benefit enormously!

Netjets has been accused of holding down GA salaries for years too, and unfortunately that's true too!

 

[h25b]

Ask H2,

He claims our low pay has hurt corporate and 135 salaries... while even closing flight departments.

Cheers,

And I am incorrect how sir ??? Are you trying tell people that NetJets hasn't closed down more than a few flight departments ?

Your rhetoric is quite humorous. On one hand you tell us all that we should all support you because you'd be "raising the bar/lifting all boats" and on the other you say that your pathetic pay doesn't hurt the industry ?

Get your stories straight... By the way. Any more info. on the 135 scab-list threat or is the union still trying to get their act together on that one as well. Come on now, your unified now right ?

Netjets has been accused of holding down GA salaries for years too, and unfortunately that's true too!

Evidently, El-Chup doesn't agree with you on that one... Yet another case of selective memory...

I just don't get your logic: If raising the salaries of thousands of pilots (us) didn't raise yours, why do you thing that raising yours will raise everyone elses?

Ace

I can answer that one... It's the typical union shop situation at work. They think a union helps them, but in reality it slows everything down. Marching around in circles, ranting and raving, and passing out "informational" leaflets to customers always makes management want to give their employees a raise as fast as possible, right ??? Read "KingAirRick" 's signature line, a rising tide doesn't affect those boats above the locks...

 

[El Chupacabra]

H2,

Calm down. All I did was told Ace to ask you. I knew you would not disappoint him.


The scab list is a dead issue. No Strike will be authorized. At least not for a long time.... But even if it were not dead... those that posted in disagreement with me are simply wrong. ASAP did not say 135 pilots flying struck work would go on a scablist.

 

[h25b]

H2,

Calm down. All I did was told Ace to ask you. I knew you would not disappoint him.


The scab list is a dead issue. No Strike will be authorized. At least not for a long time.... But even if it were not dead... those that posted in disagreement with me are simply wrong. ASAP did not say 135 pilots flying struck work would go on a scablist.

Good to hear about the scab thing, still IMHO an incredibly stupid move by whoever chose to throw it in to the mix..

Thanks for your confidence, wouldn't want to disappoint...

 

[old*art]

2000Flyer ... for clarification only .... "We - not the shiny airplanes - are the NJ product" - The "WE" was meant as rhetorical but - yes - referring to the pilots, as the owners do not interact with the dispatchers, mechanics, schedulers, flight managers or any of the other outstanding support folks we have working with us at Netjets. The pilot force is the face of Netjets, and it is getting a little tired and haggard looking. The rest of your post is opinion, to which you are certainly entitled. I will say however that I have never flown with a more outstanding group of folks than the pilots here at Netjets.

 

[netjetwife]

PFP, the point you make is a valid one and is the exact reason that I wanted to set the record straight with that out-of-context quote. I firmly believe that fairness demands that Local 1108/NJA Pilots are judged by their actions as a group--not the reputation of others or the posts of a few of their own members. They have taken the high road in their labor dispute dealings, seeking diligently to press their cause-- legally and professionally. I would like to second Old's opinion that the NJ pilots are a great group of guys/gals. I've spoken and/or exchanged emails with quite a few of them, and have found them to be respectful and polite, even when we disagree in our outlook on the issues we face. Meaning that I thought the NMB would release the parties for self-help. That it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean that it is not still an option. That chapter is still being written.


Ace, as I have never explained my thoughts behind my use of the "rising tide" comment, it is understandable that you have incorrectly assigned meaning to it. First and foremost, the rising tide, in my mind, are the profits of NJ Inc., to which the NJA pilots have made a huge contribution without just compensation. That said, it is logical to expect that the wages paid by the leader of the fractional industry will have an impact on salaries offered by the competition. Time will tell.

2000Flyer, as you say, you are on the outside, so not really qualified to judge whether or not the majority of NJ pilots do believe they are helping the industry by fighting for professional treatment. The evidence of that assertion is seen in the frequency of posts on the ASAP board, expressing that opinion. While it isn't the primary motive of the majority, that doesn't mean it isn't stated as just one more reason that the pilots must stand their ground. The pilots are very unified and calls for the "greater good" are heard constantly.

 

[Fozzy]

bump to the top

Okay, how about we leave all these company trolls to themselves. Just stop posting here. Untill this contract is done, this is the only type of post you will see from me. Give them nothing.

Stop posting, you are not helping.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Small companies always compare what they're offering to avoid losing their training costs and staff to large corporations. If NJA gets a big raise, the whole industry will benefit enormously!

Netjets has been accused of holding down GA salaries for years too, and unfortunately that's true too!

What is that supposed to mean? I don't work for a small company, I work for a large corporation, I am in a GA job and I make way over 100K. In what world is that underpaid? If NJA gets a big raise, how exactly do I (and my pilot friends) benefit?

Ace

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

bump to the top

Okay, how about we leave all these company trolls to themselves. Just stop posting here. Untill this contract is done, this is the only type of post you will see from me. Give them nothing.

Stop posting, you are not helping.

I was under the impression that you were all posting here to garner support from the rest of the industry. If that is not true, you SHOULD stop this line of posts.

Ace

 

[2000flyer]

2000Flyer, as you say, you are on the outside, so not really qualified to judge whether or not the majority of NJ pilots do believe they are helping the industry by fighting for professional treatment. The evidence of that assertion is seen in the frequency of posts on the ASAP board, expressing that opinion. While it isn't the primary motive of the majority, that doesn't mean it isn't stated as just one more reason that the pilots must stand their ground. The pilots are very unified and calls for the "greater good" are heard constantly.

NJwife...I am not qualified to judge? Why then, when I talk to NJ pilot's across the country, that not one, absolutely not one has said to me "we want a pay raise to benefit all pilots everywhere, not just at NetJets." It's a hollow argument at best. I have no doubt there are some that may feel that way but when it comes down to it, your husband (and you), and all the other pilot's are looking out for number one...themselves. That is not to say they don't care about other pilots and their QOL, but you are fighting for no one but you. Period.

Now, I'd agree 100% with your statement that the majority is for professional treatment. Professional treatment at your company, for sure. But are you going to sit there and tell me that you're concerned about the treatment of pilot's at Citation Shares, FlexJet or any other flight department. ?Do you honestly think that striking, jumping or screaming is going to make a difference? A year or two down the road when one of the other fractionals boasts the highest industry salary, are those at NetJets going to pat themselves on the back and high five down the halls because it was actually they who got someone else a raise? Hardly!

2000Flyer ... for clarification only .... "We - not the shiny airplanes - are the NJ product" - The "WE" was meant as rhetorical but - yes - referring to the pilots, as the owners do not interact with the dispatchers, mechanics, schedulers, flight managers or any of the other outstanding support folks we have working with us at Netjets. The pilot force is the face of Netjets, and it is getting a little tired and haggard looking. The rest of your post is opinion, to which you are certainly entitled. I will say however that I have never flown with a more outstanding group of folks than the pilots here at Netjets.

So, when an owner needs an airplane, they call the pilot's to schedule? When they order catering, they figure the pilot's placed the order and drove to pick it up? Because the plane flew safely from A to B, it was because the pilot's performed the maintenance?

True, when a customer arrives at the airport, it is the pilot they see. It is the pilot that flies that shiny jet from A to B. However, using that argument, is the bus driver the "face of Greyhound?"

As hard as it is to accept, you and I are a commodity. We're also replacable. That is NOT to say you and I don't deserve a fair and reasonable salary. I've said it a hundred times if I've said it once, the pilot's at NetJets deserve a raise. I can't be any clearer than that. Tell me you want a raise. Tell me you want to be treated as a professional. That, I can buy. But don't try to sell me the argument your doing it for everyone else. Delta doesn't negotiate a new contract to benefit Northwest. United doesn't want a raise for the benefit of American. They do it for themselves. You're doing it for you and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

2000Flyer

 

[gern_blanston]

help others earn more" in a given industry.

It's the typical union shop situation at work. They think a union helps them, but in reality it slows everything down. Marching around in circles, ranting and raving, and passing out "informational" leaflets to customers always makes management want to give their employees a raise as fast as possible, right ???

This is the first thing that I think of when I think of unions. This sums up my experience with the teamsters perfectly.

I just don't get your logic: If raising the salaries of thousands of pilots (us) didn't raise yours, why do you thing that raising yours will raise everyon elses?

This is a good question. If this theory really works, it should work both ways.

I have never held a job where I take a pay raise by saying, thinking, or feeling that I've personally helped all other segments salary issues. A byproduct of my salary may be a benefit for others but I have never asked for a pay raise "to help others earn more" in a given industry.

A lot of unioneers do talk this way, although I wonder if they were given the choice of a 45% raise for themselves, or a 25% raise for all pilots of similar machines, or all employees in their company - casino, dispatch, etc., which they'd choose.
Like many others voicing opinions here, I am an outsider looking in, but having lived through a teamster strike (which I voted against) I do have a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth at the mention of the words 'teamster' and 'union'.
It seems to me that this might be a bit different than the average strike, if it comes to that. Instead of nameless customers watching nameless employees picketing at some factory, it'd be more like me marching around the corporate hangar with a sign when my boss shows up for a flight. There is a difference, isn't there?
I guess all I can say is 'Good luck'. It'll be interesting to see what happens.