NJ contract extension

[gutshotdraw]

We can't, but you can, right? If you're going to rely on that argument, then very few of the NJI guys would be able to hold G slots, and should be flushed into the NJA fleet system. To keep your current seat and pay protection, AND have DOH sucks.

The EB signed the LOA guaranteeing seat, pay, and DOH because they understood a system flush would cost the company in excess of $25 million in re-training and they understood DOH was the only way to prevent "difficulties" in any future integration. A quote from an NJA union official I call a friend: "The last thing we want is 300 pissed off pilots in our union."

NJW, the issue is completely out of our hands. The imminent decision to boot the Truckers will soften a great deal of the resistance among the rank and file but we are all waiting for the Boss to make his decision and I don't expect him to decide until after the November elections.

As to union work, carts do better when pulled than when pushed if you get my meaning.

 

[realityman]

Some things are hard to swallow, but more often than not, the medicine that is the best for you often tastes the worst.

Truth is, GSD is 100% right. This isn't a merger. It's an integration. If our argument is that we've been one company all along, than DOH seniority integration is really the ONLY way to proceed.

The pilots at NJI are a class act. I've only met one in over 11 years that was a bit of a d*ck. All the others have been friendly, helpful, and professional. Once you've spent a little time with them, you'll realize that they are actually getting the worse part of the deal. Most don't want to be part of the union. And RTS has told them one thing, but proceeded down a different path than what they were told to expect (sound familiar?). And they have no union, so they're basically just along for the ride. Makes them a bit powerless, and probably somewhat worried and angry. We wouldn't be doing ourselves any favors if we then said we're gonna fight tooth and nail to staple them onto the bottom of the list. Wouldn't make for a very unified group.

We've never had a quarrel with the PILOTS at NJI. It has always been with RTS. The pilots didn't lie to us all those years ago, RTS did. The pilots didn't make us promises and then welch on them, RTS did.

I'm pretty senior at NJA, but with DOH integration, I'd still be pushed back about 40 numbers (although my actual RELATIVE seniority may actually improve!). I'm not worried about NJI pilots bidding in front of me for Falcon 2000's, but it could put me back years if we get 7X's or even SSBJ's. Still, it's a very small price to pay for the security and unity the integration will bring.

Now, if we were to actually MERGE with a whole other company I would be singing a different tune. But in this case, I really and truly believe DOH integration is completely fair.

 

[IDEtoNJA]

The EB signed the LOA guaranteeing seat, pay, and DOH because they understood a system flush would cost the company in excess of $25 million in re-training and they understood DOH was the only way to prevent "difficulties" in any future integration. A quote from an NJA union official I call a friend: "The last thing we want is 300 pissed off pilots in our union."

NJW, the issue is completely out of our hands. The imminent decision to boot the Truckers will soften a great deal of the resistance among the rank and file but we are all waiting for the Boss to make his decision and I don't expect him to decide until after the November elections.

As to union work, carts do better when pulled than when pushed if you get my meaning.

GSD,

You have nailed it!

Though, a system flush bid may cost the Company well in excess of $25 million. A true system flush bid will create movement beyond the Gulfstream realm. In addition to displacements within the Gulfstream ranks, it would create displacements among all PIC ranks -- starting with the more junior Falcon PIC's. This in turn would create a trickle down effect to all pilots on the overall system seniority list.

The overall satisfaction within the pilot ranks would very likely be in peril -- not just the satisfaction among the Gulfstream pilots.

Good to hear that you are not opposed to pulling the cart!

IDEtoNJA

 

[Ultra Grump]

The EB signed the LOA guaranteeing seat, pay, and DOH because they understood a system flush would cost the company in excess of $25 million in re-training and they understood DOH was the only way to prevent "difficulties" in any future integration. A quote from an NJA union official I call a friend: "The last thing we want is 300 pissed off pilots in our union."

You asked why it sucks, and I told you. Your argument, when completely carried out, results in a system flush for true fairness. I never said a system flush is the answer, nor is a staple job. But DOH in addition to your seat and pay protection is not exactly what I would call completely fair to the NJA side. I guess it's better to have 2800 irritated pilots than 300 pissed ones?

 

[IDEtoNJA]

You asked why it sucks, and I told you. Your argument, when completely carried out, results in a system flush for true fairness. I never said a system flush is the answer, nor is a staple job. But DOH in addition to your seat and pay protection is not exactly what I would call completely fair to the NJA side. I guess it's better to have 2800 irritated pilots than 300 pissed ones?

Ultra Grump,

What other solution would you recommend? How would you avoid a system flush bid without the seat and pay protection provisions of LOA 01-013; while maintaining DOH integration?

The way I read LOA 01-013, the seat and pay protection provisions only guarantee said protections as long as the affected pilot remains in her/his seat and fleet.

Being on the NJA side of the "fence," the only potential issue that I can see is if a Gulfstream pilot is being paid a higher salary then the one enacted in the CBA.

IDEtoNJA

 

[Ultra Grump]

DOH is not the most equitable answer, when considering the other advantages afforded the NJI side. Like I said, if you want to truly consider that because we were "one system" all along, NJI should get date of hire, then we should use that same argument regarding aircraft and position. "You can't have it both ways," I believe was the comment.

There are GIV captains at NJI that could not hold Ultra captain at NJA.

 

[IDEtoNJA]

There are GIV captains at NJI that could not hold Ultra captain at NJA.

Ultra Grump,

I know and understand that there are GIV PIC's that are junior on the VSL. I understand the emotional side of it.

However, what would be an equitable solution? I'm not trying to be facetious; I'm trying to figure out whether another solution would be realistic and feasible. Any other potential solution cannot be contradictory to our argument that NJA and NJI are and always have been one and the same Company.

IDEtoNJA

 

[gutshotdraw]

DOH is not the most equitable answer, when considering the other advantages afforded the NJI side. Like I said, if you want to truly consider that because we were "one system" all along, NJI should get date of hire, then we should use that same argument regarding aircraft and position. "You can't have it both ways," I believe was the comment.

There are GIV captains at NJI that could not hold Ultra captain at NJA.

And those Captains came to NJI with the understanding and the promise that it was, and would remain, a separate non-union shop. It's part of the reason why they accepted the position. The rules of the game have clearly changed but to flush them into a system bid would not only be ridiculously expensive for the company but patently unfair as well. The leadership of 1108 (nee NJASAP) understands it and has negotiated and planned accordingly.

 

[Abbey]

And those Captains came to NJI with the understanding and the promise that it was, and would remain, a separate non-union shop. It's part of the reason why they accepted the position. The rules of the game have clearly changed but to flush them into a system bid would not only be ridiculously expensive for the company but patently unfair as well. The leadership of 1108 (nee NJASAP) understands it and has negotiated and planned accordingly.

So why do said NJI Captains continue to work for an outfit that turned on them? Surely, they would be better off to pursue other career options so not to be submitted to false promises and dreams. Maybe they should show their excellence of character and resign their position as NetJets has obviously cut them deep.

Of course I am being a smart apple here, but it is a good thing that the G Boys have had someone looking out for them. Feel free to kick in a little monetary donotion to the cause.

 

[btodd77]

My solution would be DOH, as is currently proposed, with pay protection for everyone. ie...if there is a GIV capt or fo that is junior to you then you get the money as well. I have no desire to fly a G since I have a 2 hour ass, but there are G-IV capt's junior to me on the seniority list. The part I'm most concerned about is if they are making more than I am that we are all brought up(not bring them down) and that when I get to the 14 year point and the pay scale tops out that I am considered(for pay purposes) a PIC in over 40k airplane.
BT

 

[realityman]

My solution would be DOH, as is currently proposed, with pay protection for everyone. ie...if there is a GIV capt or fo that is junior to you then you get the money as well. I have no desire to fly a G since I have a 2 hour ass, but there are G-IV capt's junior to me on the seniority list. The part I'm most concerned about is if they are making more than I am that we are all brought up(not bring them down) and that when I get to the 14 year point and the pay scale tops out that I am considered(for pay purposes) a PIC in over 40k airplane.
BT

I like your thinking. It's creative. Unfortunately, not gonna happen. Have you had a look at the VSL? The GIV captains alone go well down our list. I highly doubt RTS will suddenly start paying over 1000 pilots on our seniority list GIV captain pay. And the F/O's go even further down. So all of a sudden 800 F/O's get a large bump in pay? Mmmmm.........I think not.

However, I totally agree that next round of contract talks we should be brought up to their pay level. That would certainly be a more achievable goal.

 

[Diesel]

Its really not about pay protection as much as it is about seat protection and aircraft protection. I'm probably the highest paid FO and the most senior FO on the VSL (about to be bumped though) and 70 percent more senior than the captains at NJI. But I'll never ever see upgrade.

You're not going to see Gulfstream pilots move to any of the planes on the NJA side as long as the NJI schedulers, and dispatchers, and support staff stay where they are. If the companies become more homogeneous by integrating the support staff then you might see some movement but even then I doubt it. If the damn seats weren't so hard in the GIV I'd love the plane.

I've always thought if both sides are unhappy then whatever the outcome was it was fair. That is the way it is with the VSL, both sides are somewhat unhappy but a 5 year company lock ensures that there isn't all this movement for nothing.

Most of the NJI pilots I've flown with have a wait and see attitude now. Time heals all wounds and everybody knows its coming. There will be some big changes to get used to. Also I think management is realizing they don't get to make the decisions anymore on this. They are being made by two people and they too are waiting for the outcome.