News - Survivor of Ky. crash sues manufacturer

[Bob_Sacamano]

Hey Cart Donkey:
Have you ever read FAR 91.3a? This was crew negligence at its worst. Shut up now, learn WTF you're talking about before you spout off, and go pour me a coke.

This does not excuse the crew's failure to notice the incorrect heading. But it also should not allow others with culpability in this accident to walk away unscathed. Hopefully Pohlenke's suit will direct the attention to some others that deserve blame in this as well.[/quote]

 

[PCL_128]

But that still doesn't mean that Clay and Polehinke weren't egregiously unprofessional, and ultimately liable. Their callous disregard for regulations and protocol are indeed criminal negligence. There's no way you can read the transcripts and see anything else.

"Egregiously unprofessional?" I read the transcripts and didn't see that at all. Just what exactly was so unprofessional about what you heard on the transcript?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wow, I know I'm very impressed by your compassion and empathy. What a strong individual! (And anus...)

The Comair Pilot Aid Fund has over $100,000 left from the strike. Perhaps they'll give some of it to Clay's kids and Polehinke.

Not sure if that is possible... however, there is the Relief Fund. Do the pilots have to be guilt free for us to support thier families?

But that still doesn't mean that Clay and Polehinke weren't egregiously unprofessional, and ultimately liable. Their callous disregard for regulations and protocol are indeed criminal negligence. There's no way you can read the transcripts and see anything else.

I am not sure we want to set the precedence of criminally negligent. If pilots can be found criminally negligent for doing their jobs, then safety goes right out the window... I am not a lawyer but let's stick with administrative law and not criminal law for the rules that govern Air Line Pilots..

The criminalization of pilots has begun along time ago. And it will be a big fight in the next ten years.

Shall a pilot be tried for murder if s/he has the seatbelt sign on and a pax or FA is killed by turbulence? (answer: yes. As it has already occured)

These guys certianly weren't vindicitive or had malicious intent.

I feel terribly sorry for Clay's kids. They're really going to suffer. But so are the families of the flight attendant and passengers who placed their trust in the crew, and were killed needlessly.

So...shall we just place all the blame on the crew or should we look at contributing factors as well and correct those too....?

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL & Rez, good posts.

Part of the problem of criminalizing aviation is the nature of criminal law itself. Individual communities set the standards for their rules and laws. Some communities that despise jet noise could make that a crime. Another community could outlaw flying all together.

Sounds nuts, but my kayak guide up in Friday Harbor (where Ernie Gann of Fate is the Hunter fame lived) said her husband, the Sheriff, was arresting helicopter pilots because those noisy things should be forced to land at airports.

As we talked, it turns out everyone was terribly jealous of Paul Allen, even though he had let island folks use his helicopter for emergency medical transport. They wanted to keep him specifically from being able to fly his helicopter.

Obviously aviation has to be Federally regulated with one set of national guidelines.

This attempt to make pilots subject to local jurisdictional regulations is a very slippery slope and can cause real problems.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Oh, I don't know. Getting in the wrong airplane, then having the ground crew tell you, then rushing to get the correct jet ready? Not saying the correct destination during PA's? Talking about buying a type rating so you can get on with Southwest? Making comments about how the runway looks weird with no lights, while the long runway is lit up like a Christmas tree? Not centering the heading bug before takeoff? (That used to be required. Is it still?)

I know for a fact that at least the Captain was a good guy. (I never met Polehinke.) But being a nice guy doesn't mean he's a good conscientious pilot.

"Egregiously unprofessional?" I read the transcripts and didn't see that at all. Just what exactly was so unprofessional about what you heard on the transcript?

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Not sure if that is possible... however, there is the Relief Fund. Do the pilots have to be guilt free for us to support thier families?

God, I hope not. They're pilots, and they need help.


I am not sure we want to set the precedence of criminally negligent. If pilots can be found criminally negligent for doing their jobs, then safety goes right out the window... I am not a lawyer but let's stick with administrative law and not criminal law for the rules that govern Air Line Pilots..

The criminalization of pilots has begun along time ago. And it will be a big fight in the next ten years.

Shall a pilot be tried for murder if s/he has the seatbelt sign on and a pax or FA is killed by turbulence? (answer: yes. As it has already occured)

These guys certianly weren't vindicitive or had malicious intent.



So...shall we just place all the blame on the crew or should we look at contributing factors as well and correct those too....?

Of course we need to correct other problems. But suing lighting manufacturers? Puh-leeze...

 

[imacdog]

Oh, I don't know. Getting in the wrong airplane, then having the ground crew tell you, then rushing to get the correct jet ready? Not saying the correct destination during PA's? Talking about buying a type rating so you can get on with Southwest? Making comments about how the runway looks weird with no lights, while the long runway is lit up like a Christmas tree? Not centering the heading bug before takeoff? (That used to be required. Is it still?)

I know for a fact that at least the Captain was a good guy. (I never met Polehinke.) But being a nice guy doesn't mean he's a good conscientious pilot.

I thought we've been over this before. Getting into the wrong plane and having to get another plane ready may have put the crew in a perceieved time crunch but getting in the wrong plane happens a lot in the morning when the gate agent says "oh you're in XXX plane this morning, it's on the ramp next to the other three CRJ-200s, we'll get you the paperwork when you get out there." I certainly hope you weren't implying that the crew were unprofessional simply because they hopped in the wrong plane.

Centering the heading bug is not required for takeoff at Comair (at least that's how the policy was when the accident occured) if a turn is required after takeoff. So it would be somewhat normal to not see the heading bug centered during takeoff at Comair.

Let's not forget the multiple notams for runway light outages, which led the crew to believe that some lights were out on the runway. Looking down 26 you can see lights from 22 on the edges of 26, making you think that your runway is at least partially lit.

Look, I'm not saying these guys didn't screw up because they did. A simple heading check would have saved numerous lives. However, Bob you need to quit spouting off incorrect facts here. You certainly aren't helping your argument by sounding like you've done no research.

 

[PCL_128]

Oh, I don't know. Getting in the wrong airplane, then having the ground crew tell you, then rushing to get the correct jet ready?

I see "CL-65" in your profile. You mean to tell me that as an RJ pilot, you never showed up to a gate in the morning that had two or three planes parked there and got into the wrong plane at first? I know it happened to me several times, and it happens to every RJ pilot.

Not saying the correct destination during PA's?

You've gotta be kidding me! You can't possibly be using this as an "unprofessional" argument. Everyone has said the wrong destination on a PA announcement!

Talking about buying a type rating so you can get on with Southwest?

Are you saying that buying a type rating is unprofessional, or that talking about it is unprofessional? Not getting your point here. All that conversation you read on the transcript took place before they started moving under their own power. In other words, not unprofessional at all.

Making comments about how the runway looks weird with no lights, while the long runway is lit up like a Christmas tree?

The runway they were on had some working lights, and the NOTAMs specifically mentioned that some lights were OTS. A confusing situation. And the comment from Jim about "no lights" took place after they were already rolling down the runway, implying that it wasn't noticed until well into the takeoff roll. That seems to indicate that there were enough lights on to make the situation look somewhat normal at the beginning of the roll.

Not centering the heading bug before takeoff? (That used to be required. Is it still?)

It was required at PCL, but I don't believe it was at CMR.

I know for a fact that at least the Captain was a good guy. (I never met Polehinke.) But being a nice guy doesn't mean he's a good conscientious pilot.

I do know Jim, and he most certainly was a good conscientious pilot, not to mention a great instructor. At his previous employer, Jim was a well-respected sim instructor.

Your attempts to smear these guys are pathetic.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

I'm not implying the crew was unprofessional solely because they got in the wrong plane. I'm implying they were unprofessional because there was a long string of small things they got wrong and never broke the accident chain.

And as for centering the heading bug. It DID used to be required at Comair. I don't know when they stopped. The standard procedure in the book was center the heading bug, and after takeoff call for "Speed Mode, Heading Mode, Half-Bank." Please note I'm stating what used to be in the Flight Standards Manual and what was done in the schoolhouse, not done the way it was done on the line.

So I'm not spouting off and having done no research. I only flew RJs at Comair for 6 years (and the Brasilia before that) before I went to the majors.

I thought we've been over this before. Getting into the wrong plane and having to get another plane ready may have put the crew in a perceieved time crunch but getting in the wrong plane happens a lot in the morning when the gate agent says "oh you're in XXX plane this morning, it's on the ramp next to the other three CRJ-200s, we'll get you the paperwork when you get out there." I certainly hope you weren't implying that the crew were unprofessional simply because they hopped in the wrong plane.

Centering the heading bug is not required for takeoff at Comair (at least that's how the policy was when the accident occured) if a turn is required after takeoff. So it would be somewhat normal to not see the heading bug centered during takeoff at Comair.

Let's not forget the multiple notams for runway light outages, which led the crew to believe that some lights were out on the runway. Looking down 26 you can see lights from 22 on the edges of 26, making you think that your runway is at least partially lit.

Look, I'm not saying these guys didn't screw up because they did. A simple heading check would have saved numerous lives. However, Bob you need to quit spouting off incorrect facts here. You certainly aren't helping your argument by sounding like you've done no research.

 

[imacdog]

You need to look at a Comair flight standards manual again regarding the heading bug. It specifically stated the heading bug would be centered on runway heading, unless a turn was required at or below 400' (the "AT" part could be an ATC-instructed turn). I remember specifically looking this up after the accident to verify I had been doing the approved proceure. That's how it was at the time of the accident.