Newest ATP pilot

Checks

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I am finally an ATP rated pilot!

Now if I can just get a decent regional to call me for an interview!(A regional that pays something during training or who's parent company isnt close to Chapter 11)

Two questions came up on my checkride that I couldnt change the DPE's mind on.
1. He says to not time an ILS approach. I say you do. He says you dont have to.
2. He says the FAF on an ILS is GS intercept. I say it is GS intercept at the intermediate altitude(or lower).

Yes, we both pulled out the FAR/AIM and couldnt convince the other one of our viewpoint/opinion.

Overall, it was a great checkride. Even though it was an ATP ride I learned a lot from him.

On Cloud Nine,

Checks
 
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banned username 2

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Congrats on the ATP... Just don't stop learning! (and it looks like you have already learned that lesson!)

Congrats again!

Fly Safe!
 

skydiverdriver

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I agree with the examiner. Why time an ILS? I never do. I once heard some people say you could turn it into a localizer only aproach, but that would be changing the game in the middle, and a go around would be much safer.

The faf is glideslope intercept, at any altitude. He is correct on that one too. The maltese cross that you see on many ILS approach charts is just for the localizer only approach.

Good job on getting your ATP, but why do you call NWA a regional?
 

throttlejockey

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OY!
1. I agree with the DPE on the timing of ILS approaches - if you lose GS after the FAF you should execute the miss and plan on shooting a different approach.

2. Disagree with the other posters on FAF -

To the best of my knowledge the The Final Approach Fix on a ILS is still located at the outer marker, or in some cases a radar fix or DME fix. Remember, a FIX is a FIX, it is a non-movable position.

However, what is different from other types of approaches is that the Final Approach SEGMENT begins at GS Intercept rather than upon crossing an FAF.

You were both half-correct!

Congrats! Now git yer'self a job woodya!
 

Tri-holer

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My $.02.

Never bothered to time an ILS. Like they said, if the GS died during the approach, much safer to regroup, rebrief, and redo.

I believe the FAF for an ILS is the GS intercept at the charted altitude or lower. I have many times joined the localizer and intercepted the GS at about 30 miles. Coming into INDY in the middle of the night. There is no way we could be cleared for the ILS that far out.

Good job.
 

Dieterly

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From the Jepp

(FAF) The fix from which the final approach (IFR) to an airport is executed and which identifies the beginning of the final approach segment. It is designated in the profile view of the Jeppesen Terminal charts by the Maltese Cross symbol for nonprecicion approaches and by the glide slope/path intercept point on precision approaches. The glideslope/path symbol starts at the FAF. When ATC directs a lower-than-published Glide Slope/Path Intercept Altitude, it is the resultant actual point of the glide slope/path intercept.
 

Saabslime

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enough
Now if I can just get a decent regional to call me for an interview!(PSA, NWA are NOT decent regionals)
I assume when you call NWA a regional, you're talking about either Mesaba or Pinnacle as both fly the red tail. Congrats on the ride but be very carefull about burning bridges soo soon in your career. I don't know what qualifies as decent in your book, but I'd be willing to bet you haven't done a great deal of research on any of those company's you listed above. :rolleyes:
 

Britpilot

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throttlejockey said:
1. I agree with the DPE on the timing of ILS approaches - if you lose GS after the FAF you should execute the miss and plan on shooting a different approach.

I use timing on an ILS as a backup for situational awareness. I would not continue an ILS after the slope is lost, in fact Ops Spec prevents us from that. It is just another way of determining the missed approach point if everthing else fails (even the FMS), as sometimes you need to know where to turn as you can climb immediatly but not turn until you are on the missed segment. Anyway, why not time?, it costs nothing.
 

bobbysamd

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ILS FAF and Timing

Good deal on your ATP. Now that you've earned it, you can update your resume and send them to regionals with an update cover letter stating that you'd like to update your file.

I agree that the FAF for an ILS is the published altitude at GS intercept that coincides with the LOM. I always taught that you should time LOM inbound as I was taught, so you could use LOC only minima if you lose GS. But, the others' thoughts about taking a miss and trying again if you lose GS are better ideas. I would still time it for positional and situational awareness.

Good luck with your job search.

PS-Another good reason to time an ILS is to maintain consistency in procedures. You time VOR and NDB approaches. Do everything the same way every time. Also, maybe to forestall bogus busts, as posted below. :(
 
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John Hewlett

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I envy you!

Congrats my friend, congrats. How was the ride anyway? Pretty tough?

Yeah the examiner is right. You can time an ILS if you want, but it may cause more trouble than its worth, so you don't have to at all.

The FAF for an ILS is GS intercept. The lightning bolt. The FAF for the localizer only portion is the cross.

Thats great about the new rating and I wish you luck with an upcoming job! Have a great day, and by all means be proud, you've earned it!

J.
 

Little_Bill

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ILS & Time

Hello,

Just some food for thought.

Back in the day when I was taking my instrument practical, I too neglected to start the time on an ILS. Being the last approach for the check ride I presumed everything went well. Back on the ground the DE asked about the timing. Caught off guard, I back-peddled and explained that it was a precision approach yada, yada, yada... He then asked what would happen if G/S went out? I talked about going missed and setting up for a localizer only or perhaps another type of approach altogether.

Basically my answers were not good enough for him and it was pink slip time! It became pretty heated at the FBO between my instructor, the chief pilot and the D/E. But that's another story.

Anyways, .5 hours of remedial instruction in the log book I was ready 2 days later. My instructor to this day believes I should have passed and all we did was fly around the pattern. He explained that I didn't need any more instruction and he just wanted to cover his a$$ with the log book endorsement.

One trip around the pattern with the DE commencing with a timed ILS, I was a newly minted instrument pilot.

It was also nice of the DE to charge me the full $250 for the second checkride that lasted a total of .8! (insert sarcasm)

Just a little story from my corner of the world.

Bill
 

prodigal

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FAF

As most of the others have already said, FAF on an ILS is indeed GS intercept AT GS INTERCEPT ALTITUDE (AS SHOWN ON THE PLATE) OR AT MINIMUM VECTORING ALT. . . . not at any altitude, as someone else wrote. False GS can be picked up at higher altitudes and farther out. Note that the altitude depicted above the maltese cross on most ILS approaches are slightly lower than the GS intercept alt. This is the alt. at which you should be if on the loc and true GS as you cross that fix. This is a way to double check that you are indeed where you are supposed to be.
As for timing, I usually do, esp. in slower aircraft since you can more easily transition to a loc approach. In faster a/c a miss may be better.
 

TWC

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CONGRATS!!!!!
Where did you take the ride and what was it like?I am getting close to take mine. As far as the timing on an ILS I was taught to use it but tend to agree to go missed the rebrief for the LOC. I started teaching use your time but if the GS goes out go missed anyway. Cover all the bases
 

414Flyer

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Re: ILS & Time

Little_Bill said:
Hello,

Just some food for thought.

Back in the day when I was taking my instrument practical, I too neglected to start the time on an ILS. Being the last approach for the check ride I presumed everything went well. Back on the ground the DE asked about the timing. Caught off guard, I back-peddled and explained that it was a precision approach yada, yada, yada... He then asked what would happen if G/S went out? I talked about going missed and setting up for a localizer only or perhaps another type of approach altogether.


Bill
Nowhere in the PTS does it mention you have to time an ILS. That is a bogus bust. He could have afterwards said it is what he likes to do, and recommended it, but to fail you for it is wrong.
 

Timebuilder

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Well done. I plan to join the "club" by Christmas.
 

Little_Bill

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Bogus and then some

414,

That was our logic after the ride. Like I said, things got pretty heated in the FBO. But the examiner wouldn't hear otherwise. His philosophy was losing GS was no big deal. If you had your time you could still continue with a non-precision approach. Yet I was always taught to go around, regroup and prepare for the next approach.

Oh well, like I said that was many check rides ago. Plus it also makes good conversation during the interviews.

HR: "Have you ever failed a check ride?"

Me: "Yes, my instrument"

HR: "What Happened?"

Me: "I neglected to start my time on an ILS approach"

HR: "What did you learn from that experience?"

Me: "Basically to start your time on an ILS approach :D "

Bill
 

Checks

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SaabSlime,

I edited my post, please read the change. Didnt mean to offend I just wish Pinnacle(NWA) would pay its new hire pilots something. I live relatively close to Detroit and would love to work for them so I am just bitter over how some regionals take full advantage of aspiring airline pilots. Ok Off the soapbox!

Timing and the ILS
-If the GS goes out then when do you know when to turn?
-I also do it out of habit.

FAF on ILS
-I thought the AIMwas pretty clear that the FAF on an ILS is the point where the GS intercepts at the intermediate altitude(or lower if ATC vectors you lower). The DPE didnt agree at all. Oh well
 
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