New to Forum - Training for Regional...

[jaywc7]

First of all - Hello to everyone.

After a little sifting through these forums, I've decided to post...

I'm looking for any advice & thoughts (good & bad), and here's my story so far :

Started at St. Cloud State University Aviaion program in Minnesota. After nearly completing my BS degree, obtaining my Multi-Private, and somewhere around 350 hours, I decided to look elsewhere. Although SCSU is a great program, it just didn't work well for me.

Knowing I can finish my 4yr BS with a couple online courses, I set off to find somewhere to get my dang ratings. I was hoping to do it fast. My good friend cautioned me that accelerated flight training can be "easy come easy go". Regardless - I began looking online. I found many places, and had a hard time distinguishing between them and their programs.

I finally settled on Regional Airline Academy (Arizona Campus) www.raajobs.com
I didn't know what to expect, but packed my belongings in my parents basement, left my fiance` behind in Minnesota, and headed off to Arizona with nothing but hopes, dreams and my logbook.

I started at RAA in March in the instrument ground school. I was on pace to finish my instrument in about 6 weeks. I got a little behind though, and after a little trip back to MN, it turned into 3 months. I am now in the commercial ground school (which I took 141 at SCSU but oh well) and am working on my commecial in a Seneca. My plans here are to finish the multi-commercial, study and complete the ATP written, enter the RAA FOS course, and complete the scheduled CRJ Type Rating at CAE in Denver. I'm expecting to have this done before the year is out.

I do know that RAA's employment placement is somewhere in the 97-99% range. My two roommates whom I lived with in March completed the FOS course and the Type Rating at CAE and just got hired within the past week. Everyone I know who went through the program here immediately got their guarunteed interviews, and got hired in a reasonable time. RAA has some alliances with various regional carriers. I'm not sure of the whole list, but I know it includes PSA, Pinacle, Express Jet, American Eagle, Colgan, Air Wisconsin, and a bunch more. I think the majority of the alliances require something like : 500TT, 100M & the Type Rating. This seems like a really good thing to me, since I will be finishing the program with those minimums for sure.

Hopefully then, after I get hired somewhere, I can finish my couple online courses and recieve my degree as well. I've heard that as long as you can fly the simulator,,, it's just the person sitting on the other side of the table looking at you, saying to themselves, "Would I enjoy a few hours flying, with this guy riding right seat?"

Please - give me your comments and advice. I'm sure there are things I've missed, decisions I've made wrong, time I've spent poorly (and money), and many other things. Just give me your honest opinion what you think I've done right, or discussion about how I may better my future in the aviation industry.

Thank you

~j

 

[Yellow Snow]

Only one question.

Why would you spend soooo much money to get an interview (not a job just an interview) for a job that pays soooo little?

 

[jumppilot]

I'm sure there are things I've missed, decisions I've made wrong, time I've spent poorly (and money)
~j

Yes. Yes. Yes.

You should have stayed at St. Cloud and finsihed your degree. One person I know of from there was in my upgrade class and had nothing but good to say about it.

Get that 4 year. Not getting it was your first and only mistake, as what you did after was a result of that tragic error.

 

[Ralgha]

For the most part, buying type ratings is a waste of money, unless you're collecting them for the sake of collecting them. Let the airline that hires you pay for your type rating. You need time in the type for the type rating to count for anything, and you won't get that from a type rating mill.

In glancing over their first office school a few things come to mind.
1) I didn't find a price shown, not that I looked very hard, but I would bet good money that you could have gone through part 61 and accumulated enough time and ratings to get an interview for a LOT less money.

2) The airline interview prep: you can get a couple interview prep books from a library and save more money.

3) Aerodynamics, Instrument Proficiency, Situational Awareness: by the time you would enroll in the first officer school, you should already know/have these, shouldn't need a ground school to teach them to you.

Anyway I've always been of the opinion that you don't have to go to a "first officer school". The airline that hires you will train you.

 

[jaywc7]

Well - I've certainly heard many times that there's no need to pay for a type rating. As far as the FOS course goes - it's certainly knowledge that can be obtained through books alone. The main few things I see here are #1 - Alliances that take pilots through the program with 500 hours vs. 1500!!! #2 - Networking benefits since the guys puting in the applications are very experienced retired airline pilots and such. #3 - I don't want to be a CFI despite the benefits, which I'm well aware of. It seems like a waste of time to me... #4 - It's really hard to turn down a 100% Interview rate, and a 98% hire rate!!! I tend to think they're doing something right... And lastly - I did the WHOLE aviation program at SCSU, and only need like 3 elective courses to obtain my 4 year BS degree - so I didn't really quit, I just am going to finish once I have a job and some income... The other side is - yes it is too much money (and no I don't have it - it's all loans), but if the program works as it has proved in the past, I will get a job much much sooner. It just seems to me that getting on the list early will yield more money faster, despite the loans. The way I see it - I need to get in as soon as possible, get through probation, and just get going flying...

I am keeping an open mind, and hope to see some comments that will help me. So far though with what I've seen - I'm still convinced this is a good choice.

Thanks! Keep em' commin'!

 

[jumppilot]

Do what you need to do. Only time will tell you if it was a good decision.

 

[jaywc7]

Only time will tell you if it was a good decision.

Who can ever know without time...

 

[Kream926]

ya im training for the regionals too


ps

friends dotn let frinds drunk and post

 

[Ralgha]

and only need like 3 elective courses to obtain my 4 year BS degree - so I didn't really quit

Unfortunatly you will find that it is many, MANY times harder to go back and finish it rather than just spending one more term there and finishing it without stopping.

Another thing a lot of people don't understand is that loans are bad, and the less debt you have the easier EVERYTHING else will be, regardless of what you do for a living. Do whatever it takes to minimize the debt. Part 61 would have gotten you 1500 hours for less money than this program will get you 500.

 

[jaywc7]

Well,,, see the thing is that I had about 400 hours coming into this program that I basically flew myself. I didn't start from scratch here. I'm only flying about another 100, which includes my instrument, and my commercial and the level D simulator time at CAE. I actually figured out that the commercial here in the seneca is turning out cheaper then SCSU! Since I already got my complex and H/P when I was in MN, I am doing the commercial here part 61, not 141... As far as the school goes, I know that it can be more difficult to go back. The fact that I have only a couple classes (which can be done online is the key), I feel it was an option. Part of me wonders if I'll actually do better later with an online class, then sitting at SCSU anyways. I think maturity plays a role, and I definately screwed around plenty while at SCSU. The other thing, is that my fiance` went to SCSU, just graduated, and is now a Kindergarten teacher. I can't see myself sitting around SCSU without her there. Although I'm not with her right now since I'm in AZ and she's in MN, I thought I would like this soltitude better. ??? I do realize that debt sucks, and want to minimize it. The bigger thing in my mind however, is time. Despite the fact that 500 here MAY cost me more then 1500 elsewhere, it should get me the job faster. If I look at people who have no debt and worked their way through vs. people who bought their way through, I find this : When the person who spent the time, has little debt, and instructed finally gets in at whatever age they happen to be, how far will I be by that age if I get in at 23? I see too many people who get in the lull of instructing/holding another job, and can't or don't get out for whatever reason. I don't want to be reaching a regional anytime after 25...

 

[Ralgha]

If you get in the lull of another job, then you must enjoy that other job, so what's the problem?

I think you need to slow down and relax a bit. There's nothing wrong with reaching a regional after 25, and you'll enjoy it a lot more if you stop and smell the roses along the way. Besides, what happens if you don't get a job right out of the RAA? You'll have spent all that money and not be marketable at all with only 500 hours. Will you come away with any CFI certificates or not?

 

[Yank McCobb]

I have an idea. Go to the pilot mill, get your interview, get on with regional flying RJ, (with little time and even less experience, you will not even know the difference between shat and shinola), take the RJ on a joy ride to "four one farkin' oh, dude", yankin' and bankin' all the way up with the yoke in one hand, your crank in the other, some drool rollin' down from the side of your chin, so far behind the power curve that you have nailed the lid shut on the "coffin" corner, still not realize that your shat vs. shinola knowledge is severely lacking, and well.........

Yep. Better take that myopia and focus on what's REALLY important. It's not knowledge. It's not experience. It's getting your serverely limited butt into the seat of an RJ before it's ready. Go for it. But please send me your schedule every month so my family and I, along with everyone I know, can avoid those flights.

 

[CUEBOAT]

This seems like flame bait, this guy already made his mind up. Why are you asking for advice now(after you have already decided)? It would be too late even if you wanted to change your mind. I think he may just be looking for justification for blowing $80K on a barbie jet type.

 

[labbats]

If you were just a bit more resourceful and got out of this huge school for a rating mode, you could have easily gone to an FBO nearby or transferred to nearby Iowa Central Community College or Northern Iowa Community College. I'm sure your fiancee would have been infinitely happier if you put a little more effort into seeing what's available.

 

[jaywc7]

Well, first of all -
As far as "Smelling the Roses" - look here : www.swissperpetual.com/arizona.html

Or,,, better yet! Here (more literally) : http://www.swissperpetual.com/jddpj21.html

Point made...

Secondly - Yes, I am looking for justification. No, I can't pull out at this point either way. I was moreso looking for "FUTURE ADVICE" from experienced pilots, instead of a bunch of dip***ts telling me what I've done wrong. My original post laid it right out that I know there are many ways to go about it all. I was only hoping for knowledgeable advice that would help me from where I am... So far - none of you have given me a bit of help or hints as to what the future might hold, or any options I have from here. All you have done is belittled what I have already accomplished, and my goals and my dreams... I just wish someone had like,,, oh i don't know,,, maybe interview tips, or, reccomemded regionals to get on with and such info like that.

Please - you can spare me your personal opinions about the choice i've "already" made, and what you "think" of my school...

How bout some real honest good advice??? Anyone??? Anyone at all???

 

[swcom]

Jay, a simple, yet effective plan for your future, and one that will pay dividends far higher than what you spend on flight school - FINISH COLLEGE! If you could finish somewhere else (other than an online school) in one semester, than go for it. This will pay dividends far and above whatever you are going to be spending on ratings, training, etc. Not being a college grad does not mean anything to most people, but it can to an employer . . .aviation or otherwise. Plus, you are too close to give up. I agree with Ralgha - once you're out, there are too many life issues that will stand in the way of going back. You can start at a regional when you are 25, or 35 . . . don't worry about life passsing you by for now; worry about that when you start losing your hair, your marriage, and your job! For now, take it easy. Best regards.

 

[jaywc7]

Thanks swcom... You have gained my respect...

Another symester wouldn't kill me...

If I don't have a job by the time Spring Symester starts, and I'm waiting to hear back on interviews (which may be the case) I am definately considering going back to SCSU to finish. It would be faster then doing the online stuff, and I might be waiting to get in anyways? Either way - I have something to keep me busy, and proceeding forward, whether it be a job, or more education...

Point well observed...

 

[Art Vandalay]

Personally, I'd work on losing the double chin so you can get all the chicks that a 500 hour regional F/O deserves. Good luck with that!



Art V.

 

[jaywc7]

Hey thanks for the advice! If I wanted to get chics though, I wouldn't even have to loose the double chin! There's plenty of brainless plastic women in Scottsdale that would probably be content enough as it is if I tell them I'm a pilot!

I'm quite content with my fiance` though.

 

[guidoverduci]

I know the whole guaranteed interview things seems to be bull, but the website says 100% interview with 98% job placement withing 45 days! I've talked to former students and I've heard nothing but good things. I'm really considering their first officer program. I already have a 4 year degree with 500 hours. I know that they are placing people at express jet, american eagle, air wisconsin, and some others. What do you guys think? I've already done the search for PFT and Regional Airline Academy. But most of the posts are a couple years old. It seems like RAA has gone through some changes and more regionals are working with them. Another reason why I like it is because it's in AZ, so I wouldn't have to move.

 

[Bongo]

A PFT story. I didn't write this, nor will I take credit for it. It was taken from this site http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=1444


Here goes:
Yes to Aviation and some advice to new fuselage huggers.

Yes, friends, as the singer said, “the times they are a changin’... For really young new folks in the aviation business there is a lot of hope, however, ” We have entered an era of Pay-For-Training/Pay-For-A-Job. But, I don’t mean the PFT where a pilot pays for his/her airline ground school and flight training. I mean the PFT practiced by aviation universities. That’s right, our own schools are practicing PFT right before our very eyes. How?? Here are a couple examples:


1. Come to one large mid-western school in the northern plains, and participate in the highly regarded program for selected students. At the end of 4 years, find yourself assigned as an F/O in a 4-engine regional jet with a large regional airline. Yes! You! Mr./Ms. newly-minted commercial pilot. Just sign up with us, pay your money, and away you go. We taught you all you need to know... By the way, several captains with the
major airline affiliated with the regional describe this situation as a “CRM nightmare”.

2. Come to a large beach-front school near the Southeastern branch of Mickey Mouse World, and get a job with a large regional. Maybe even a type-rating on their brand new BE-1900 or B-737 sims (Level D, of course). Again, pay your money, get your degree, we’ll get you “in” with a regional and you can bypass all those poor slobs that are getting real experience...

While I will be the last one to knock giving opportunities to those who have earned them, I will be the first to say “Whoa” when we get ahead of ourselves. The last thing we want to do is create a situation that “sets-up” our future pilots for failure. Let’s step back and examine what we need in this industry. We need proficient, knowledgeable, educated, well-rounded pilots. We need pilots who are well-schooled in regulatory issues, aeronautics, aerodynamics, CRM, human factors, aircraft technological advances, advanced avionics, and safety.

These same pilots must also be able to fly, and be able to handle the airplane and manage its systems in all types of weather, ATC/airport congestion, and in unforeseen situations. And these pilots must be able to contribute to the success of the flight as a fully functioning member of a two- or three-pilot crew.

How do we “create” these pilots of tomorrow? Education, flight training, and CRM training are major elements of this training. First, they need to be educated. While a 4-year degree is not a requirement to be a good pilot, the 4-year degree is the accepted standard used by Human Resource managers at most large carriers (regional and major) to screen candidates for educational accomplishments. The hiring boom that has begun may lead to a supply-and-demand situation that dictates reduction or elimination of this requirement, but don’t bet on it. “Educated” is a broad term, but should mean schooling in the subject areas that I listed as necessary for a good pilot, plus a well-rounded general education. The aviation colleges seem to do a pretty good job of educating our future pilots. The technical education offered by these schools is superb. Secondly, the pilot of tomorrow, like the pilot of today, needs real flight time and experience. The examples that follow are actual situations that have occurred at aviation colleges (large and small) that involve creative (and illegal) logging of flight time:

1. Two pilots in a Multi-engine airplane, with a CFI in back. All 3 logging PIC time.

2. Two pilots going to NIFA in a CE-150. No “hood”. Neither a CFI. Both logging PIC time.

3. Pilots logging time in a simulator/FTD as “Multi” and “Total” flight time.

4. Pilot on jump-seat of a B-727. Pilot’s father is the Captain. Dad signs off command” time in son’s logbook. Son now with regional carrier. Professor proud of his student and supports this method of gaining B-727 time.


Let’s get real folks! Pilots need to be exposed to actual flying to develop the motor skills, flow patterns, and habits that are used sub-consciously by experienced pilots. While training in simulators is known to be superior in many ways to training in an airplane, at some point, the pilot needs to get out in the real world and do some actual flying. This allows full integration and correlation of skill and knowledge in a real-time flight scenario. The result of such training and experience is the development of the “spare mental capacity” that is required to deal with the situations and contingencies that are inherent to all flights.

At the commercial pilot level (new pilot), these skills are well-honed for local operations. But the pilot has very little experience in the IFR system, all weather operations, complex aircraft operations, high-density airport operations, mountain flying, etc. The new pilot will quickly find that all the “simulation” in the world cannot prepare him or her for the tasks at hand.

This rampant logging of questionable flight time hurts not only those who are scrupulously honest in logging their time accurately, but also hurts those who log this “bogus” time. Yes, flight time is one of the means used by airlines to select pilots. This is unfortunate, as flight time does not always reflect quality or breadth of experience, but it is the reality of the current hiring situation.

Please, university faculty, make sure you lead the way in promoting integrity in your students’ logging of flight time. If you don’t they may fall flat on their butts when put to the test. If that test is “for real” in an airplane, people will die.

Go back and read that last sentence. If you are tempted to “pad” your logbook with meaningless time, instead of working to build quality experience, go back and read it again until you are convinced. Accidents happen in this business. They happen for a variety of reasons, but human factors (usually pilot factors) are the leading cause.

When accidents happen, people (you) die. Training and experience are two of our best defenses against these accidents. You owe it to yourself, your crew, your passengers, your airline, your family, your friends, your fellow pilots, and your profession to be proficient and qualified.

I’ll bet a few of you are wound-up by now and asking the age-old question, “Yeah, but how do I get that experience?”. We’ll get to that shortly, but please don’t try to get that experience as part of an airline crew. The First Officer is NOT a trainee. The F/O is a highly qualified pro who is, by law, qualified to perform the same tasks (with minor exceptions) as the Captain on his/her checkrides. The Captain and the F/O (and F/E, if you’re lucky enough to work with one of these increasingly rare types) are a CREW. While most F/Os lack the depth of experience of the captain (especially in the particular aircraft type), they are light-years ahead of new commercial pilots in all aspects of flying ability, knowledge and experience. The crew interacts as experienced operators to create a safe and efficient flight environment. This experience that they possess did not come from attending classes, nor from CRM exercises; it came from years of flying airplanes.

Get your experience the old-fashioned way. Go out and fly as PIC in an airplane you can handle. Learn it well.

Fly other airplanes. Learn their characteristics. Become a pro (this is a state of mind -- an attitude toward your profession). Flight instruction, while not involving a lot of “stick time”, will teach you more about flying than you have learned while obtaining your commercial pilot certificate. Pipeline patrol, sightseeing, aerial photography, skydiving operations (they jump, you stay in your seat), are all good for building experience. Get on with a charter operator. Fly night freight. Fly in the military. As you transition from one type to a more complex type (at a rate you can handle), you’ll build that elusive experience (which would be better measured by years, seasons and number of flights, rather than by hours).

 

[Bongo]

continuing along...

While we’re on the issue of experience, let’s cut through all the crap that you hear about type ratings. At 250 hours you’ve got as much business being in command of a Citation, Beechjet, BE1900, or B-737, as you do in command of the Space Shuttle. Yup. That’s what I said. “In Command”. That means you’re “it”. You are the final authority as to the conduct of the flight. You help to create a comfortable, well-run flight-deck. You contribute. You listen. You discuss. You direct. You teach. You learn. You fly. You support. You make decisions. You handle problems. The other pilot(s) look to you for mature, seasoned, sound judgment. Sorry, but at your level, you’re just not ready.

Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is setting you up for a big fall, or just wants your money. I realize that you can probably pass the type-rating check, but that is a snap compared to what will be required of you as a captain. After all, that is what that piece of paper entitles you to do -- act as PIC of that type aircraft, with a brand-new low-experience SIC sitting next to you, a bunch of trusting souls in the back, absolutely at-minimums weather at your destination, with an alternate that is no piece of cake either, and handle anything that might go “Murphy’s way”. Don’t be fooled into thinking you are ready for that. Instead, ask yourself why your school is offering that type-rating. Could it be to draw more students? Those simulators cost MILLIONS of dollars, dollars that could be spent on an education you need and flight experience you can use (or maybe not spent at all, with lower tuition the outcome). Tell your school to put away the expensive unusable toys.



Last, but certainly not least, pilots need a solid grounding in CRM. Practice CRM techniques every time you fly. Fly with other pilots. You must be able to interact in a crew environment, and the time to start learning is now. The benefits of solid CRM programs are recognized throughout the world as contributing to a safer flying environment by maximizing the crew’s synergy. I realize this is hard to do in the situation most of you find yourselves in, but do the best you can -- it will pay off in the future. Try to fly with a single-pilot operator. Even if you don’t get much actual “stick time”, you’ll gain important experience by watching and participating. Most of these pilots would be happy to help someone else, and happy to have the extra set of eyes and ears. One last thought, attend a good CRM course.



Now, let me set the record straight. I am not a “Grinch”, nor am I an old curmudgeon. I have seen hard times, but I’ve been incredibly blessed with some very good deals in my career. I merely see us, as an industry, irresponsibly creating some very un-realistic expectations for our next generation of pilots.



To My Fellow Pilots:



Keep holding the standards high and protecting the profession. We all know that there is no easy way to succeed. Do all you can to encourage and assist these future pilots, and help them to understand that the “no easy way” method might help to save their ass someday.



To Airline Management:



Give new pilots all the breaks you can. But realize that at some point PFT brings you pilots with money (or debt) and does not bring you the best group of pilots you could get. By the way, do you advocate PFT for managers, or do they need to have an established “track record”?… That’s what I thought....



To University Faculty and Administrators:



Please do not allow the lure of high student volume, or the pressure put on you by the administration to cause you to lose sight of your real job. Your job is to mold, develop, guide, encourage, teach and assist some very talented young (and not so young) pilots on their path to careers as professional pilots. They must be aware that real success is not achieved overnight. They must be well-prepared for the future.



“Looking good on paper” doesn’t count. You are their link to reality. You are the industry’s link to the future.



To Future Pilots:



You are the future. Please push yourself. Don’t expect a quick route to the majors. You’re gonna work your butt off to be successful. Study hard. Study beyond the required courses. Learn everything you can about your profession, including its history. There’s a lot in our history we don’t want to repeat. Insist on being ”pushed” in your flight training. Set your standards extremely high. Be a pro. Settle in for the long haul -- you’re in a tough career, but one with many rewards. Enjoy the good breaks you’ll get in your career.



Display integrity. Demand the best from yourself on every flight. Set a positive example. Learn, and never stop learning. Teach, and never stop teaching. Remember those who helped you in your training and in your career, and be sure to “pass it on” to others who will need your help someday. You’re coming into a great hiring boom, and opportunities will be there. Don’t ever give up. Good luck. God bless. Fly safe.

Cheers

 

[BushwickBill]

Yo Jay,

A lot of people feel bitter about the pay for training deal. So you sortof just stepped on a landmine. I understand how the pay for training option seems so tempting especially for someone who has not been involved in the aviation community for a long time. A lot of my friends are going this route. I chose not too because my family has been involved in aviation for a long time.

I myself am one of those people that dont like pay for trainnig. For quite a few reasons. First of all I'm paying my dues everyday in a 152 teaching some guy to land. Teaching someone to land for 16 bucks an hour really really stinks. I have the same dreams and aspirations as you but I lack the 20grand to pay for my first job. So I go out everyday and take all kinds of crap in a little plane with 13,000 hours on it with some guy who is trying to kill me.
So since the begining of aviation people have paid thier dues for much longer than they should have in a trainer telling someone for the 300th time to use the rudder. All these people think you didn't pay your dues. Your not part of their little club of "dues payers"

Also you do learn a lot by instructing. How to work with people stuff: how to tell someone they are doing the wrong thing, when to tell them, what not to tell them, what information they need to know to get the job done, etc. Your not going to learn that in the CRJ sim or during groundschool if you get hired.
I'm sure your going to be able to learn how to fly the CRJ sim. But will you be able to fly the CRJ when the flaps go out and the autopilot doesn't work and its dark and stormy and there are 50 people who are depending on you?

Jay if you do get hired your set. Your logging turbine SIC and your young and you dont care if you only make 20k a year. You just bypassed 3 years of beating your head against a wall. Someone will be holding your hand until your Captian so maybe it will all work out. Asking for advice on what to do next is sortof like rubbing my nose in poop or it is at least seen as that by some other folks. Hence the negative reactions to your posts.

Good luck. I hope you dont take this as a flame. I'm trying to give you a little insight.

I however am starting to feel like all the beating my head against the wall is worth something.