New SWA Pilot Contract?

[PTinbound]

Gentlemen, come, let us reason together.
Let's say we want to be an airline like United (zoiks). We demand no less than $354 per trip. Relations become sour and we go down that disasterous road, and then the current contract becomes ammendable on 8-31-04, at which point negotions will begin for the next contract. Who knows how long that would take at that point anyway. So our senior captains would be making 138 then.
Plan B: Let's (you guys, I guess, poolies don't count) sign this right now. On 9-01-04, that same senior dude in Dallas is now making either 158 or 163, and earnest negotions will begin a whopping FOURTEEN MONTHS later on 11-01-05. (The proposed contract is ammendable 8-31-06, with negotiations to start 11-01-05). So if this guy works a day extra and credits 110 TFP's a month, he's making (at the 163 figure) $215,160 counting only straight flight pay, as opposed to $182,160 on the current books.
That's an extra 33 grand just in pay, not counting the extra profitsharing, etc that would be created in an atmosphere where the pilot group works with everybody to make a strong company that we all love. Anyway, signing this "Interim Offer" I think will only delay earnest negotiations for 14 months, not the four years that it seems. In the meantime, the new hires once again get stock options, all the FO's upgrade sooner, the senior guys get better retirement medical bennies and the extra 33 grand, the pool gets drained out, interviewing starts, the stockholders (including pilots) send their kids to college, and everyone gets a couple more thousand people below them. And we don't end up like the proverbial Smiths and Jones's.

Who was it that said "show me the money?" Dude, I can live like a king on 180. Give me 215 someday and make me senior and I'll call that great. How much money do you need to be happy, anyway? "A man who loves money never has money enough", a wise man once said. (King Solomon) I'd rather scrape by on 215, loving my job, my coworkers, and my management team, than make 300 and dread every day on the job. Life is too short for that. I know, I know. Lay off the Kool Aid.

 

[737dude]

rates

Flint4xx--
FO pay is now and will always be based off of Captain's pay. Therefore if it were not for first year Captain pay, there would be no first year FO pay and that would be bad. That is why the number on the chart exists--not because we hire Captains off the street (except in 1971).

 

[Caveman]

The reason SWA is making money when everyone else flying 73's isn't is because they have managed to keep labor cost down. If you want SWA to remain the top dog a while longer I would keep your compensation in perspective. Anybody making anywhere near $150K a year plus stock options is doing quite well, especially for a part time job. Bombardier just went on strike over a single digit percentage raise. They also settled the strike for a 3 or 4% raise and a $1000 signing bonus. SWA's opening offer is 20%?!?

Don't forget that if you get a raise that compensates you on par with DAL, UAL, et al you will probably just have killed the golden goose. Airplanes are airplanes. Fuel is fuel. Parts is parts. Labor costs are the key ingredient and thus far you guys have been cheaper to keep than a DAL pilot and that IMHO is the sole reason SWA is doing well. If SWA loses it's labor advantage it will be a whole new ballgame. Don't forget that Jet Blue, AirTran and others are trying to model themselves to some degree after SWA. They are your real competition and their labor costs will remain relatively low for the near future. Don't price yourselves out of the market niche you created.

Take the money and run, keep the company growing and save me a spot in about 3 years.

 

[Jakeair]

I have a ref.

FlintXX

SWAP contract (current), Section 4, Page 1

"Captains will be compensated on the basis of "trip Pay" wich will be paid at the approprate equipment longevity rate."

EQUIPMENT LONGEVITY PAY

Equipment longevity pay will be paid per trip credited, based on the appropriate aircraft and the pilot's years of total sevice with the Company at the following rates:


Table of pay rates (can't display)


Jakeair

 

[Magic]

Flint,

You really need to read AND UNDERSTAND your (our) contract before you come on here and spout off about how much you will be paid after upgrading. Until you understand the contract, please don't give advice or info to others.

 

[flint4xx]

I stand corrected.

 

[ILS JNKY]

south west stock

You got that rite, the company has a very strong stock postion, have held for the last two years and watched it double,what did they say in the movie boiler room go out get in dubt, by a house, by a car, Well we have more Leaps on south west as months go by ,So when it comes to jet training imay not fly for (luv) but the stock pays for my training.,(GOLUV)

 

[StarrBuck]

Sorry if someone already answered this question, I couldn't find it in the thread anywhere.. Anyway, can someone explain when this extension will be voted on and what the process is for ratification? Thanks,

S.B.

 

[shagadelic]

1st off, you get paid at whatever rate equals the number of years at SWA. Thus if you upgrade at 5 you are paid as a five year captain.

2nd, this offer gives us 7.6 percent raise this year. It gives us a 4% raise next year. We were already going to get 3% this year and 3% next year, in our current contract. So it is really a 3.6% and 1% raise over the next 2 years from what we had. Then in 04 it's just over 13% but we were already getting 5%. Then its another 6 % in 05, then another 5% in 06. All for a two year extension on an already long 10 year contract. Oh by the way, you don't see 15% of YOUR money because your busy funding your own retirement. And paying for uniforms, your own meals, your own parking, your own type rating, flying up to 8 legs a day. Do I want Industry leading? No. Average? You bet. At the end of this offer, we will still be about 20% off average NOW. We don't even get up to 2004 average in 06.

Do I like where I'm at? You bet. But this is a job, SWA is a business. I still wouldn't want to be anywhere else. But that doesn't mean we can't work to make it better.

Will I vote for it? No. Will it pass? Probably.

 

[XNav]

Shag-
You hit it on the head. We are NOT being greedy. We want AVERAGE bottom line hard pay for a major airline narrow body pilot. This offer does not achieve that. Am I surprised? No. The company has no reason to accomodate us when our contract is not amenable for another 2+ years. This is tantalizing bait offered up for SWA's own benefit. Will I vote for it? No. Sadly, however, many hungry fish will. I would rather have a contentious sec. 6 in '04 settled ultimately by an arbitrator. That may be the only path to industry average pay for us.


C-YA on the pprune.

 

[nimtz]

BTW,

Does this contract offer any enhancements to retirement? In the long run that's the real advantage of getting on a major airline seniority list. Ironic that most of the koolaid drinkers that find this contract acceptable don't even work for SW. I think the SW guys that have replied are exactly right, don't take the first offer.

 

[NEO]

Shag,
Good points. Could you explain this a little more:

"this offer gives us 7.6 percent raise this year. It gives us a 4% raise next year. We were already going to get 3% this year and 3% next year, in our current contract. So it is really a 3.6% and 1% raise over the next 2 years from what we had."



Are you assuming SWA will not make a profit this year? If they do make a profit, then the pay increase for 03 will actually be anywhere from 4% to 7.6%.


According to the current contract by 03, SWA pilots will see a 6% raise. (3% in 02 and 3% in 03)

The new proposal will give SWA pilots a 15.2% by 03 (7.6% in 02 and 7.6% in 03). Of course the raise in 03 hinges on how profitable SWA is.

That means SWA pilots would see a 9.2% increase over the current contract by 03


That is a little more than your 4.6% increase estimate

I guess it all depends on if you think SWA will be profitable or not.

 

[jball2]

There is a lot more to this than pay rates!

Understand it all so you can make an INFORMED decision!

 

[shagadelic]

Good Points Neo...

However, just being profitable is not enough to justify getting the extra cash. It's profit MARGIN that counts. I'm not a CPA, but did look at it, and realized it would take me quite a while to understand it!!

Yes we will be profitable; will the profit margin be good enough, I don't know. Please note, by the end of this contract offer, the total percentage raises will be the same. The difference is, do we get a bit more cash earlier with a good profit margin, or do we get it later if profit margin sucks. For instance, if profitibility is good, the last two years we get only 4.5 and 1.6 % respectively. Obviously the earlier you get the raise the better, but in 2006 we'll still be lagging industry average and only seeing a 1.6% raise.

If the stock options kick a$$, that will help, but we can't keep growing like we have. In the early 90's we had around 100 planes. Now we have around 360 (not sure exact numbers). So we'd need over 1000 planes to see the same percentage growth over the next 10 years. Can we do it? I doubt it.

I was erring to the lower end of the pay scales to make a point. You are correct, we will see a higher percentage by the end of 03 if we are very profitable. But we will still be VERY far behind industry average. I just got a package from the company today in the mail telling how great this offer is and how we would show great leadership within the employee groups by signing it. That alone makes me HIGHLY suspect. My thought is, they can tell the other employee groups, "See the pilots don't need to be paid industry average, why should you?" In addition, it has been said that the pilots have never turned down a first offer. That alone is bad negotiating...Glad I don't buy a car that way.

We have NO leverage right now. We are going to the company with our hat in hand begging for change. We can open the negotiations correctly September 2003, just over a year away. Why be impatient now and vote in garbage??

The biggest determining factor of whether this passes hinges on the SWAPA BOD vote in June. If they vote thumbs up, or no recommendation, I think it will pass. If they vote thumbs down, it probably won't. I have faith in this board, if they think this is worth it, based on the money, options, and "Super-mediation" language, then I will consider changing my vote. If they give no recommendation, or give it a "NO" recommendation, then I will definitely vote no.