New stop loss info out

[DaveGriffin]

trueblue;
I am sorry if I have offended you. Please remember that everything I know about KC-135 nav's is what I have been told by some very opinionated AF pilots. Maybe you should direct your offense at AF pilot biases and prejudices. Your strong words and negative thoughts are very hurtful.

 

[Draginass]

In the days when KC's had no/or only single INS of dubious accuracy and no radio updating, the Nav was indispensible. He also provided a sanity check for the 2 pilots. Further, since pilots received little or no training on radar scope interpretation on the 1950s radar, the Nav's expertise in wx avoidance was very helpful. During the cold war, flying very remote places without nav aids was a given.

Now, with modern avionics finally being fitted into the old KCs, the presence of a Nav is not firmly necessary.

Hopefully, the USAF will start replacing the 135s with a modern tanker like the 767-400, or 300 with the 400 off-the-shelf (OTS) cockpit setup. The increase in lift capacity and range would be great. If only the USAF could get over it's 2 engine phobia.

 

[Visceral]

DaveGriffin,
If you are going to attack me, at least have the balls to admit you typed your words, not some "Blackbird and Specter aircraft commanders" as you put it. This thread is about stop loss and I asked the question on who else was affected by it. IF you read the thread start, you would probably understand that. If you want to continue your attacks, why don't you go find the kiddie forums. This is a military forum for people interested in topics which affect military members or those looking to join up. I've enjoyed my duties on the tanker, but with Pacer Crag, the modernization has finally caught up with the Air Force, and yes the nav isn't required at all. THAT is the main reason I'm trying to get out of the Air Force and do other things. SEE, IT MAKES SENSE, DON'T IT!

 

[bssthound]

Dave Griffin,
I'm certain your "debriefings" with Blackbird and Spectre aircraft commanders are very informative. Too bad you haven't talked to any KC-135 A/Cs about the nav's job. I'm just about certain you'd get a little more favorable reply from someone familiar with the mission and has possibly had his bacon saved by a good nav when the INS failed over an ocean or hostile territory. Oh, maybe you could ask a receiver who was on fumes and looking at nothing but water below him when the tanker showed up.
Please limit your comments to subject matter that you have some knowledge of. Not some third-hand hearsay at the O Club.


By the way, isn't this thread about stoploss?? I realize some officer and enlisted career fields have been lifted. I know aircrew probably won't be for awhile but it is a start. Dubya really didn't have much of a choice. Give him a few years; this job might just be fun again!

 

[Spectre]

I know this thread is about stop loss, but let's make this clear. There are still airframes in the US Air Force that require NAVs. I flew gunships and was glad to have a Nav onboard. Even with dual INS and GPS on the AC-130H, the Nav had an important role on the gunpig besides navigation. He would communicate with the ground parties to coordinate fire missions, confirmed targets before we fired, and coordinated refueling with tankers. The FCO (fire control officer) who sat next to a NAV was also NAV rated. There will always be a NAV on a gunship. Other aircraft like the C-130E/Hs have NAVs who are instrumental to the airdrop mission. To add, since many pilots left the Air Force recently when the airlines were hiring, the only rated officers left to take Squadron/ Group/Wing Commander positions were NAVs. They're doing an awesome job!

Hang in there, stop loss will go away.

 

[Magic]

Navigators are the guys running the show in the B-52. They have total control of which weapons land where. As most of you have seen in recent news stories, the B-52 is an still an awesome weapon system. The pilots' job is to get airborne, onload fuel from the tanker, handle communications and land the plane at the end of the mission. Other than that, we go where the Nav team tells us. The varying array of weapons that can be carried by the B-52 is incredible. The Nav team has to maintain proficiency in all of them. There are many Navigators in B-52 squadron leadership positions today. This was uncommon in the past. There may not be many aircraft left that need a Nav to get from point A to point B but when the job entails more than that, the entire crew is essential to get the bombs on target. And that, when it is all said and done, is how wars are won.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Stop Loss

Come on, I didn’t make negative remarks about all Navs for all airplanes. You guys seem a little thin skinned here.

I disagreed with Visceral’s ‘I’ve been shafted” comments about stop loss and was responding with an alternative viewpoint that included a personal barb with sarcastic overtones. I don’t know about the AF, but that’s something I’ve become accustomed to gittin’ and givin’ on a regular basis for quite a while. I guess I need to buy you guys a few beers and see if you ever lighten up a little.

Originally posted by bssthound "Please limit your comments to subject matter that you have some knowledge of. Not some third-hand hearsay at the O Club”

Sorry bssthound, but the intell I gathered regarding the KC-135 was essentially correct. Dragginass and Visceral himself confirmed as accurate the fact that recent advances in electronic nagigation equipment have reduced (but not eliminated) the necessity of the Nav for that airframe.

 

[bssthound]

Sorry I took so long to respond but I was out in the sun too long and this thin skin just doesn't take well to sunburn!!

Yeah, the nav job is just about gone from the 135. GPS is not a nav's friend in regard to job security. Of course the box is only as good as what is put into it. The third set of eyes up front can be invaluable when something "just doesn't look right." Been there.

Imagine if the wrong numbers are put into a "magic box" and the crew is too busy with threat and terrain avoidance to realize they're dropping the jumpers in a bad place.

Anyway, stop loss is here and just about all of us have accepted it. I understand Visceral's frustration. I also understand that every day he puts on his uniform he'll give 100%. Like any good aircrew member he'll bitch relentlessly but will give it his absolute dead-level best.

 

[Blue Team]

Flying in the Gaurd or Reserves

With all this talk I am reading about stop loss and shortage on pilots, I am inquiring to you experienced military aviatiors on what you think my chances are of flying heavies in the ANG or AF Reserves in about 2 years. I have 2 more years of school left. Also, what would be the best route to take to become a pilot in a unit. I admire you guys and hope that someday i can be right there along side of you. I do not know much about the military and how it operates. I just have always dreamed of flying in the Air Force. America appreciates what you guys are doing and may God be with you and bring you home to your families.

 

[OPIE01]

Here is a Guard hiring website

Below is a website that has phone #s and guard/reserve units who are hiring for UPT throughout the country.

http://www.baseops.net/newjob.html

I wish these opertunities were there when I was graduating 20 years ago.
And if you join a Unit now they may have the money to pay you back for the college cost you spent already.

Please send me a personal message if you want more information.