New Rumors......ASA

["GO AROUND"]

Speculate? About what? That it sucks to be one of 18 reserve capt's for 400+ lines this month because our ex schmuck of a VP of Flt ops and the rest at the GO couldn't do their job and staff the airline properly. The result is my days off being changed 3 times and me spending a total of 3 days at home so far this month and tring to move at the same time. Yeah I know cry me a river....All I know is if we did our job as poorly as some at the GO, we would have an incident or accident every week.

 

[Palerider957]

Speculate? About what? That it sucks to be one of 18 reserve capt's for 400+ lines this month because our ex schmuck of a VP of Flt ops and the rest at the GO couldn't do their job and staff the airline properly. The result is my days off being changed 3 times and me spending a total of 3 days at home so far this month and tring to move at the same time. Yeah I know cry me a river....All I know is if we did our job as poorly as some at the GO, we would have an incident or accident every week.

Agreed. Yet still we have guys doing everything they can to "get the flight out on time," save gas, make pax happy, basically keep the airline running. I have done these things in the past, as I thought it was a part of being professional. Now I am in Anti-Christ mode.

The company does this crap to us, because collectively we let them do it to us. We are all paying for sins of the past.

 

[doh]

I said before that malicius compliance is fun. Now you know why. If you stop enabling disfunctional behavior, then management will change the process to something that works. Nothing works in this business without our cooperation. QOL issues that cost no money are constantly witheld from us so that management can use them as bargaining chips. Why not withold those services of ours that cost no money to use as bargaining chips as well. All's fair!

 

[ifly4food]

Now I am in Anti-Christ mode.

LOL, that's the best one I've heard yet.!!! Maybe we should put upside down crosses on our flight bags as a message to management.

 

[udontwannaknow]

why does everyone just sit around and complain? as far as i'm concerned MW doesn't know what he's talking about the majority of the time and most of sked sucks but i've also had some decent experiences w/ them.
so DO something Dam*it!!!

 

[~~~^~~~]

The "Big Announcement" is that we no longer have protection from continuous duty overnights being front and back end loaded with "PM Day Lines" and other flying. Apparently our union lost a grievance over the issue and Crew Scheduling is now puttling flying right up against three CDO's.

It is now schedulings interpretation of the contract that 3 CDO's have to be followed by two days off only when more CDO's are scheduled.

This is thanks to another ALPA to Management fense jumper that participated in our last contract negotiation and who testified that "no more flying" did not mean what it says, but that the parties intended to mean "no more CDO's." The arbitrator went along with it.

So, as I understand our current agreement, we have literally no protection what so ever, other than the Whitlow letter. I guess that ASA figures they will make us "buy it back" during negotiations. However, I'm not buying what I already own.

Nobody can organize a strike like ASA's own management can.

 

[bigshooter]

You have got to be F@#$ing kidding me

How anyone can think that is a responsible safe way to schedule crews is beyond me. You know waht it is goining to take to change this one or two hour rest crap on a cdo, the eternal dirt nap! or water nap! Maybe the FAA will give a sh$t then.

 

[bigshooter]

By the way what was all that stuff the company preaches in new hire and recurrent about sleep cycles and how long it takes to adjust your sleep cycle? Its one thing to hold a nap line (no offense, but those peolpe are part vampire) but a relief line with a mix of trips or on reserve when you res period is 5am and you get the call at 5:30 am to go on rest to duty in for a nap that night. Very nice!

 

[doh]

Time to fight back. Really, just do your job and NO one elses. Fun and easy to watch the chaos that ensues!

 

[FL000]

The "Big Announcement" is that we no longer have protection from continuous duty overnights being front and back end loaded with "PM Day Lines" and other flying. Apparently our union lost a grievance over the issue and Crew Scheduling is now puttling flying right up against three CDO's.

It is now schedulings interpretation of the contract that 3 CDO's have to be followed by two days off only when more CDO's are scheduled.

This is thanks to another ALPA to Management fense jumper that participated in our last contract negotiation and who testified that "no more flying" did not mean what it says, but that the parties intended to mean "no more CDO's." The arbitrator went along with it.

So, as I understand our current agreement, we have literally no protection what so ever, other than the Whitlow letter. I guess that ASA figures they will make us "buy it back" during negotiations. However, I'm not buying what I already own.

Nobody can organize a strike like ASA's own management can.

This is the exact passage from our current contract. It is neither preceded nor followed by any related language which might compromise its interpretation:

b. The Company will not require a pilot to fly more than three (3) consecutive CDO’s without two (2) days off following the third CDO.

What kind of person can't figure out what that means? It's one of the few parts of our contract that I can actually understand. Unbelievable.

They can forget about any first TA being agreed to by me. I don't care what it says.

 

[capt.snitch]

This is the exact passage from our current contract. It is neither preceded nor followed by any related language which might compromise its interpretation:

b. The Company will not require a pilot to fly more than three (3) consecutive CDO’s without two (2) days off following the third CDO.

What kind of person can't figure out what that means? It's one of the few parts of our contract that I can actually understand. Unbelievable.

They can forget about any first TA being agreed to by me. I don't care what it says.

Seems clear to me. If they want to schedule us for 4 or more CDO's we have to be given 2 days off after each 3. So, as long as the 4th trip is something other than a CDO, it's OK. The issue when the current schedule was negotiated was that they were scheduling us for more than 3 in a row and we wanted either days off or a switch back to humane hours. We agreed to it and the arbitrator agreed that we agreed to it. Remember that unless we are granted something in our contract, we are not entitled to it. So read the new contract (if we evr see it) carefully before voting for it.

 

[MetroSheriff]

.....Three (3) consecutive CDO’s without two (2) days off following the third CDO.

Seems clear to me. If they want to schedule us for 4 or more CDO's we have to be given 2 days off after each 3. So, as long as the 4th trip is something other than a CDO, it's OK.

Capt. Snitch, are you retarded?

 

[capt.snitch]

.....Three (3) consecutive CDO’s without two (2) days off following the third CDO.




Capt. Snitch, are you retarded?

No. I may not like it, but that's the contract. Three CDO's followed by a two day trip or two single day trips is perfectly legal. Only if they want to give us a 4th CDO do they have to give us two days off. It has always been that way but seldom done. Only after we took it to arbitration and lost our argument did scheduling feel free to do it on a regular basis.

What I heard was that the company had their notes from the negotiations and we didn't.

 

[WOXOF All Day]

No. I may not like it, but that's the contract. Three CDO's followed by a two day trip or two single day trips is perfectly legal. Only if they want to give us a 4th CDO do they have to give us two days off. It has always been that way but seldom done. Only after we took it to arbitration and lost our argument did scheduling feel free to do it on a regular basis.

What I heard was that the company had their notes from the negotiations and we didn't.

I have a plan---accept the trips and call in fatigued from the field. Those CDO's are brutal and should be either eliminated or not consecutive.

 

[Plug]

No. I may not like it, but that's the contract. Three CDO's followed by a two day trip or two single day trips is perfectly legal. Only if they want to give us a 4th CDO do they have to give us two days off. It has always been that way but seldom done. Only after we took it to arbitration and lost our argument did scheduling feel free to do it on a regular basis.

What I heard was that the company had their notes from the negotiations and we didn't.

Holy crap, ND is posting on flight info from the heavens above. WTFO, are you buying that crystalized crap on Virginia Ave. ?

The company had their notes and we had ours, the only thing that f*cked us was ND and his "I was the ALPA negotiating chair". The arbitrator bought evrything he was shoveling and we got snuckered.

 

[~~~^~~~]

No. I may not like it, but that's the contract. Three CDO's followed by a two day trip or two single day trips is perfectly legal. Only if they want to give us a 4th CDO do they have to give us two days off. It has always been that way but seldom done. Only after we took it to arbitration and lost our argument did scheduling feel free to do it on a regular basis.

What I heard was that the company had their notes from the negotiations and we didn't.

No, it is not the contract. Read it again.

We have had a clear understanding with the Company for seven years and now it is violated? When did the light go on?

What I heard is that Capt. NB was hired by management from his position on the MEC's negotiating committee. NB used his experience in negotiating the contract for the pilots to now undermine the contract for management. When this particular issue was arbitrated NB spoke from a position based on his ALPA experience, telling the arbitrator that the pilots intended this to be interpreted as only being applicable to additional CDO's, when in fact, that statement is not true.

In my opinion this is a management trick during contract negotiations to steal back what the pilots already own, just to make them fight for it back.

Added to this is the current climate of occurrences for calling in sick and refusing junior manning. Clearly pilots are being pushed. Now consider:

... and a pilot shall receive at least nine (9) hours of rest following a duty period which ends in domicile if the reduction is due to an operational delay. Between CDOs the Company shall schedule a pilot for, and a pilot shall receive, at least nine (9) hours of rest following a duty period which ends in his domicile.

Flying three CDO's against other flying with scheduled rest down to 9 hours in domicile may be flat out dangerous in some circumstances - and you are telling me this is what the pilots negotiated? Crap, this is not even safe after 3 CDO's. Duty out at 11:30AM after a CDO with no sleep, see you at 8:30 PM tonight to start your three day blocked to 21 hours?

Tell me, is this safe?

 

[captjorge74]

My question is to everyone. How much more can the pilots take this abuse from management? How much more will management violate our contract? Bottom line we are all tired of management's interpretation of our contract and continue to violate it. We must all work together to fight for a fair contract. Yes we must fly the contract but at the same time safety is a real issue. I can not believe the FAA has not step in to this issue. When is enough is enough?

 

[michael707767]

In my opinion this is a management trick during contract negotiations to steal back what the pilots already own, just to make them fight for it back.

Fins is right. They only went after this as a bargaining chip.

 

[capt.snitch]

I would never suggest that the scenario that you present is safe or unsafe. Freight dogs do it all of the time. Report late at night, fly to hub, stay up or sleep in a chair, and fly to another station. Sleep most of the day as we do when we fly CDO's. I have seen plenty of FedEx and DHL lines that are nothing but continuous "CDO's" and I don't see them falling out of the air.

There does not seem to be a consensus. Some of us love them and some hate them. The people who complain must not be getting what they want while others (me) would like to group them together to the limit of the regs and have extended time off. And I don't answer any phones on my days off.

 

[shamrock]

Being part vampire, I prefer naps and I certainly hope they never go away. That being said, mixing them in with regular flying is stupid. After doing naps for the past 8 months, I'm adjusted to the lifestyle, but for someone coming off "normal" rest they can be brutal.

It will be interesting to see if our nap lines will change with the loss of the grievance. I really hope not. I don't like this job enough to fly 75 hours a month and if they trash my lines all they'll succeed in doing is getting me off my ass to look for another job. But that's what they really want anyway, right?

 

[capt.snitch]

My question is to everyone. How much more can the pilots take this abuse from management? How much more will management violate our contract? Bottom line we are all tired of management's interpretation of our contract and continue to violate it. We must all work together to fight for a fair contract. Yes we must fly the contract but at the same time safety is a real issue. I can not believe the FAA has not step in to this issue. When is enough is enough?

If the company violates the regs, call the FAA. The feds will certainly violate you, as well as the company, if you accept an illegal trip.

 

[captjorge74]

I would never suggest that the scenario that you present is safe or unsafe. Freight dogs do it all of the time. Report late at night, fly to hub, stay up or sleep in a chair, and fly to another station. Sleep most of the day as we do when we fly CDO's. I have seen plenty of FedEx and DHL lines that are nothing but continuous "CDO's" and I don't see them falling out of the air.

There does not seem to be a consensus. Some of us love them and some hate them. The people who complain must not be getting what they want while others (me) would like to group them together to the limit of the regs and have extended time off. And I don't answer any phones on my days off.

I undersand the company like UPS or FedEx has CDO's. We on the other hand have a contract that we all agreed on. We all know that our current contract is poorly written, but we understand that our contract states and I am quoting "The company WILL NOT require a pilot to fly more than 3 CDO's without 2 days off following the 3rd CDO." Whats to interpret? Its plain English. Enough is enough.​

 

[~~~^~~~]

I would never suggest that the scenario that you present is safe or unsafe.

OK, if I drink two Schlitz Malt Liquors while welcoming the passengers on board my airplane and maybe a third while taxiing to the runway, would that be safe, or unsafe? How about if I pased out for about 10 minutes on approach and final?

Just in case your AA's are run down in the breathalyzer - please allow me to refer you to the March 2003 Air Line Pilot magazine article reviewing the work of Dr. Rosekind and NASA Ames Center. Studies show that it takes two days to pay back a debt of fatigue and that the effects of fatigue are similar to the effects of excessive alcohol intake. First of all, the drunk usually is the last to realize their deficiency. There are measurable losses in decision making ability, judgement, memory, and efficiency of motor skills after 12 hours of duty which are the equivalent of 2 to 3 beers. ( in my best Barry White voice - What's the Action - Satisfaction! ) Put a guy on 15:15 of duty, released to 9 hours of rest in domicile for another 16 hour day and you are looking at a pilot who takes "microsleeps" on approach.

You know that Crew Scheduling views these limitations as goals. They schedule without regard for sensibility, or fatigue considerations. It may be a lack of appreciation, or ignorance, of the problem - but you and I both know Crew Scheduling will push and extend, especially if the weather is bad.

Ah - I finally found the statistics in Aviation Week 16 July 2001 - Pilots getting 6 hours of sleep, rather than 8, performed as follows:

• Cognitive Errors - degradation of decision making ability - up 50%
• Memory reduced by 20%
• Ability to process communications - degraded by 30%
• Attention - reduced by 75%

So what do you suggest? Want to split a 6 pack with me in ops? Studies say there is no difference in performance.

Schedule with Safety! It isn't something I'm going to negotiate for.

 

[captjorge74]

make sure you have enough for everyone who is sitting standby in the crew room ~~~~~^~~~~~~~ LOL

 

[CF34-3B1]

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but NASA Ames did a study comparing time awake and time spent sleeping to blood alcohol levels.

Off the top of my head it was something like 18 hours awake after less than 8hrs sleep was roughly equivolent to a .04 to .05

Remember the DC8 crash in Gitmo?

 

[Bizjet]

The "Big Announcement" is that we no longer have protection from continuous duty overnights being front and back end loaded with "PM Day Lines" and other flying. Apparently our union lost a grievance over the issue and Crew Scheduling is now puttling flying right up against three CDO's.

It is now schedulings interpretation of the contract that 3 CDO's have to be followed by two days off only when more CDO's are scheduled.

This is thanks to another ALPA to Management fense jumper that participated in our last contract negotiation and who testified that "no more flying" did not mean what it says, but that the parties intended to mean "no more CDO's." The arbitrator went along with it.

So, as I understand our current agreement, we have literally no protection what so ever, other than the Whitlow letter. I guess that ASA figures they will make us "buy it back" during negotiations. However, I'm not buying what I already own.

Nobody can organize a strike like ASA's own management can.

It is amazing how those that cross over to the mismanagement team will lie for money. Does any pilot at ASA really believe that you can be in management for any length of time and not do bad things to good pilots? Those that take management positions end up saying that they don't like what they are forced to do but don't want to lose the money. How can some of our pilots defend chief pilots who participate in pilot pushing and supporting management’s willful violations of our contract? Our chief pilots are after the money. Don’t trust any chief pilots who tell you they know that management is running roughshod over our pilot group but then ask you not to say that he told you that. Our chief pilots are hand puppets. Tibby Toes just puts his hand up their rectum and moves their lips. If they had an ounce of courage they would all go back to the line on the same day. But they will never do that because they are gutless and have no integrity.



MW went from Captain Rep to Chief Pilot soon after leaving the union position. Where is the integrity? CV is a nice guy but is totally worthless. Most of the chief pilots are nice guys but very weak individuals. I am sure you could get them to do a table dance in the crew lounge for a couple of dollars. It is truly all about the money. It is like a narcotic—once management gets you hooked you can’t stop. You get accustomed to the income and then you start doing things to pilots you never dreamed you could do. You desensitize yourself by saying all pilots are whiners and most deserve what ever punishment you are ordered to bestow upon them. You start thinking that you can’t go back to the line because the line pilots will never understand how you could have been such a turn coat. You finally justify it by making yourself believe that you did all that you could do to help the pilots and that you are no worse than any of your fellow money whore$ in management. You finally convince yourself that if you have to lie to keep your job it is O.K. You really can’t go back to the line because it is too late for that. The day you finally feel shame is when you go to the company retreat and look at others in your position and know deep inside that you can’t stand them and know that they must feel the same about you. Looking around you see Bob D., Bruce G., Randy M., Chuckie T., Skippy B., Gary G., Chromer S., (at least you think it is Chromer S. however you have never actually seen his head) and say to yourself “how did I get myself into this group of misfits? Do I have the courage to be the first chief pilot to ever go back to the line without being forced to leave?” You realize that leaving is not an option since you can only lose your integrity once.

Do any of us believe that those in these positions have what it takes to go back? I think that management has done their homework well and has made the correct selections for their team. Weak mindless sheep always herd together.

 

[701EV]

Bizjet,

You hit the nail right on the head!

All of our CP's are gutless!

Every one of them is a POS!

701EV

 

[bailout]

All except for F.L. that is..

 

["GO AROUND"]

And F.L. should be going back to the line soon. C.V. and C.C. will tell you staight up that the company has stripped them of all the power they used to have and M.W. is the only one that can do anything. But we all know that he will not do a thing.

 

[wms]

CT knows that if the one truly responsible for our short-staffing is fired he loses his job. Human resources, get it?

So he's twisting every thing SB sees to make it look like it's our fault. SB's only fault is he trusts his dishonest mgmt team. Hopefully it'll flow down from DB and CT will lose his job too. Keep firing people till things get better is a mgmt tool.

As far as junior man, don't answer any calls with numbers you are not familiar with. The contract says a pilot is not required to be available on a day off, so if your spouse etc answers the phone have them say "he's not available" and hang up. If you answer the phone by mistake say and do the same thing without identifying yourself.

If they keep scheduling and drafting pilots for things that didn't use to be acceptable, pilots are going to keep leaving in greater numbers, and fatiguing and using sick time because it's the only way left to get some kind of relief. Scheduling believes there is a sick-out going on and there is not. However, their actions have resulted in more people using sick time which has left them even shorter. I don't condone using sick time inappropriately, but people are doing it even more because they are burnt-out and have no option.

Poor planning and poor treatment of employees in every employee group is why every employee group is short-handed. And these task master tactics they're using to fix it is only going to make it worse.