New Pilot Certification Requirements for Air Carrier Operations

[pipejockey]

The military tunes out very cable pilots who at 1000 hrs are very well qualified. However there is a screening process with some pretty tuff entrance requirements, tuff course completion standards, and a continuing training process.

For once I agree with yip. But are you saying that those tougher entrance requirements and completion standards should be brought to the airlines? If so, the airlines would have to pay significantly higher wages, something you don't seem to think airline pilots are worthy of these days based on your previous posts about pay. Back when hiring ended a couple years ago, most of the regionals had mins down to less than 500 hours. I think Eagle was as pathetic as 300/50. If you want candidates that are going to meet these tougher standards, it will never happen at these pay rates. No one in their right mind can expect the best and brightest among us to choose a profession where you shell out 50 to 100 grand for a 4 year degree and flight training and not be guaranteed a good wage right from start. Especially when you are likely to get stuck at a regional for your entire career.

 

[Bringupthebird]

bring up the bird- bullsh!t
go back to your pu$$y desk job. I've seen way too many needle and pointer pilots get all kinds of confused in today's rnp world to believe that pilots of yesteryear were more valuable.

I'm sure you have, but you're probably dealing with pilots who failed to adapt to the changes; not that the demands of that change were excessive, just ignored.

The pool of pilots available to do the job safely in the days when you actually flew in bad weather and shot actual approaches to minimums was much smaller than those able to push the APP pushbutton or do a Sudoku during a groundstop today.

I might need to get a desk job someday to help pay for Obama's "change" but it will have to fit in the 10 days a month I'm home.

 

[pilotyip]

pay?

For once I agree with yip. But are you saying that those tougher entrance requirements and completion standards should be brought to the airlines? If so, the airlines would have to pay significantly higher wages, something you don't seem to think airline pilots are worthy of these days based on your previous posts about pay.

I have nothing against higher pilot pay. I just do not believe the present economic business model will support it. We have to remember many of these paxs buying low-fare tickets may elect not to travel at higher prices. They may also elect to use alternate forms of transportation such as driving, taking a bus, or car pooling, such as going to a bowl game in Florida from Atlanta. This is an economic decision to be made by the individual ticket buyer. The marginal rate of ticket price elasticity may not be exactly known. But it is there. I remember SWA raising their advance purchase tickets price last spring, they could not hold the higher price and had to revert to the lower prices within a couple weeks. If by some situation airline fares were to go up 25%, then pilot pay could double. But pax loads would go down by some unknown but significant amount. This would mean fewer pilot seats to few. It would be good for some pilots, the senior ones, and bad for the junior pilots. It is neither management nor unions that can operate without considering the impact on the consumer who has instant access to the cheapest fare on every route. Which airline wants to be first?

 

[bubbers44]

No one in their right mind can expect the best and brightest among us to choose a profession where you shell out 50 to 100 grand for a 4 year degree and flight training and not be guaranteed a good wage right from start. Especially when you are likely to get stuck at a regional for your entire career.
__________________
Embry Riddle would disagree with this statement. I know someone who is paying to have his son do just that. Sorry, but the reality is we have thousands of qualified pilots on the street today and they would love to have any job they can get. I saw our last furloughed class turning in their books after 9/11 in 2001. They won't be back for many years. That is reality.

 

[pilotyip]

not needed

No one in their right mind can expect the best and brightest among us to choose a profession where you shell out 50 to 100 grand for a 4 year degree and flight training and not be guaranteed a good wage right from start. Especially when you are likely to get stuck at a regional for your entire career.
__________________
Embry Riddle would disagree with this statement. I know someone who is paying to have his son do just that. Sorry, but the reality is we have thousands of qualified pilots on the street today and they would love to have any job they can get. I saw our last furloughed class turning in their books after 9/11 in 2001. They won't be back for many years. That is reality.

$100K worth of training and a college degree is not required to make it in this career. I have seen too many succeed without it.

 

[waveflyer]

Pilotyip- I think your current needs for pilots would benefit by 1) lower wages industry wide-
2) pilots who go through their career w/o a college degree
both help you find-and retain- pilots to fly for a wage low enough to support YOUR company's economic situation
----------------
bring up the bird- I'm sorry-we disagree- I don't have a ton of ego- but I've done this job in both world's we are talking about- the modern world helps us get through our day safer and easier than it once did- but we have never gotten paid for the day to day routine- we get paid to be ready for the once in a career 'let's's see if everyone lives or dies' , and the once a month doozy- those moments require every bit of the talent and expertise as anything in the past.
I just don't accept that argument-
unless of course you're an old guy who likes to get nostalgic and beat his chest about 'how much better we were back in the day' -
thinking that doesn't make it true -

 

[pilotyip]

Not a college degree discussion

2) pilots who go through their career w/o a college degree
both help you find-and retain- pilots to fly for a wage low enough to support YOUR company's economic situation-

Not sure I follow your logic. Shall we get into a discussion about the need for a college degree to succeed in life? BTW If this is true why does SWA hire guys without college degrees? Could it be they are great guys, fantastic experience, and prove themselves more suitable to the job than the 1000’s of degred guys not hired by SWA?

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Yip, what he is saying is that with just their pilots licenses and no degree they are kind of stuck looking for pilot jobs as they are qualified for little else. But you could argue that people with aviation degrees are not much more marketable then guys with no degree. Regardless, and I disagree with Yips argument, You will be into a pilot license for at least $60,000 to get the minimum ratings.

And from that press release it looks to me like this is the start of getting Multi Crew Pilots license into the united states. That little one line "Academic experience for Flight experience" is the one that is going to hurt the most. What that means is they will allow people to use simulators and academic experience to get in the cockpit of 121 operations without ever having to touch a real airplane. They are going to pass legislation saying they are making things safer and will slide less experienced people in the cockpit.

 

[waveflyer]

yip, i'm always happy to have the "degree" OR not to "degree" discussion.... I have strong feelings that a degree for most people is an amazingly valuable thing. The return on investment is incredible.
But...
- it's never a guarantee- a person's drive and attitudes will determine success. School is one place to develop that drive.- i went to school with a lot of guys who never developed or truly learned while getting their degree. And a whole lot of people who did- myself included. I really developed and learned a lot getting that degree- the most valuable of which wasn't the knowledge- it was the discipline and work ethic getting the grade instilled. College is a place where we put ourselves in challenging situations, so that we can develop the skills to overcome them. For me, at some point, the world went from moving faster than me, to me moving much faster than the world. I would not be as successful or happy without my college experiences.
A degree isn't necessarily required for success and happiness- but a thirst for learning is.
I don't think you are arguing that a person can become successful while remaining ignorant? You're just saying that the "Good Will Hunting" library card is actually a smarter way to gain the knowledge? Through job experience?
I think the classroom is just that. It's a cog in the wheel for learning- but bouncing theories off the other classmates and pushing each other has it's place.

There's a stat that said a college degree reduces your chance of becoming a millionaire by xx percent. The reason is b/c you're so employable you dont' take the risk to start your own business. you sit back fairly comfortable- not rich- not poor.

Bottom line in the pilot world. Those of us with a degree do much much better than those of us who don't. And it's not close. Those that slip through tend to be very well connected. Well over 90% of major airline pilots have degrees. And ask Albie- but maybe 80%+ of regional pilots. It's a liability you will have to explain in an interview. Can you overcome it? Sure- but why not do the schoolwork? Why would you NOT get a degree? To HR people, who at the major level all have Master's or equivalent- it raises some eyebrows. Pilots go where when they are first hired?
To class?
A degree shows you're capable of doing well in a class environment.
To not get a degree when well over 90% of your peers do... what attitudes do you have?

It just raises a lot of questions that, right or wrong, will get asked.

Again- from all your posts, it sounds like youre stumping for your own agenda.

 

[pilotyip]

OK let’s go back to basics. My posts are a college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. I have agreed it may open some doors in the hiring process at the upper end, but then SWA continues to hire guys without degrees, because they fit the bill. BTw there are so many ways to prove yourself besides college. How a about a high school grad who goes through Army flight training, transitions to fixed wing, has he proved anything? How a high school grad who completes the Navy's Nuclear Power Plant Operator course, something only about 5% of the people on this board could complete, has he proven anything, and lastly a guy like Bill Gates who found college a boring mess of regurgitated stuff and dropped out to start his own company, has he proven anything? There are many ways to prove yourself college is only one, and it may be the easier of the many paths.