New Pilot Certification Requirements for Air Carrier Operations

[pipejockey]

The military tunes out very cable pilots who at 1000 hrs are very well qualified. However there is a screening process with some pretty tuff entrance requirements, tuff course completion standards, and a continuing training process.

For once I agree with yip. But are you saying that those tougher entrance requirements and completion standards should be brought to the airlines? If so, the airlines would have to pay significantly higher wages, something you don't seem to think airline pilots are worthy of these days based on your previous posts about pay. Back when hiring ended a couple years ago, most of the regionals had mins down to less than 500 hours. I think Eagle was as pathetic as 300/50. If you want candidates that are going to meet these tougher standards, it will never happen at these pay rates. No one in their right mind can expect the best and brightest among us to choose a profession where you shell out 50 to 100 grand for a 4 year degree and flight training and not be guaranteed a good wage right from start. Especially when you are likely to get stuck at a regional for your entire career.

 

[Bringupthebird]

bring up the bird- bullsh!t
go back to your pu$$y desk job. I've seen way too many needle and pointer pilots get all kinds of confused in today's rnp world to believe that pilots of yesteryear were more valuable.

I'm sure you have, but you're probably dealing with pilots who failed to adapt to the changes; not that the demands of that change were excessive, just ignored.

The pool of pilots available to do the job safely in the days when you actually flew in bad weather and shot actual approaches to minimums was much smaller than those able to push the APP pushbutton or do a Sudoku during a groundstop today.

I might need to get a desk job someday to help pay for Obama's "change" but it will have to fit in the 10 days a month I'm home.

 

[pilotyip]

pay?

For once I agree with yip. But are you saying that those tougher entrance requirements and completion standards should be brought to the airlines? If so, the airlines would have to pay significantly higher wages, something you don't seem to think airline pilots are worthy of these days based on your previous posts about pay.

I have nothing against higher pilot pay. I just do not believe the present economic business model will support it. We have to remember many of these paxs buying low-fare tickets may elect not to travel at higher prices. They may also elect to use alternate forms of transportation such as driving, taking a bus, or car pooling, such as going to a bowl game in Florida from Atlanta. This is an economic decision to be made by the individual ticket buyer. The marginal rate of ticket price elasticity may not be exactly known. But it is there. I remember SWA raising their advance purchase tickets price last spring, they could not hold the higher price and had to revert to the lower prices within a couple weeks. If by some situation airline fares were to go up 25%, then pilot pay could double. But pax loads would go down by some unknown but significant amount. This would mean fewer pilot seats to few. It would be good for some pilots, the senior ones, and bad for the junior pilots. It is neither management nor unions that can operate without considering the impact on the consumer who has instant access to the cheapest fare on every route. Which airline wants to be first?

 

[bubbers44]

No one in their right mind can expect the best and brightest among us to choose a profession where you shell out 50 to 100 grand for a 4 year degree and flight training and not be guaranteed a good wage right from start. Especially when you are likely to get stuck at a regional for your entire career.
__________________
Embry Riddle would disagree with this statement. I know someone who is paying to have his son do just that. Sorry, but the reality is we have thousands of qualified pilots on the street today and they would love to have any job they can get. I saw our last furloughed class turning in their books after 9/11 in 2001. They won't be back for many years. That is reality.

 

[pilotyip]

not needed

No one in their right mind can expect the best and brightest among us to choose a profession where you shell out 50 to 100 grand for a 4 year degree and flight training and not be guaranteed a good wage right from start. Especially when you are likely to get stuck at a regional for your entire career.
__________________
Embry Riddle would disagree with this statement. I know someone who is paying to have his son do just that. Sorry, but the reality is we have thousands of qualified pilots on the street today and they would love to have any job they can get. I saw our last furloughed class turning in their books after 9/11 in 2001. They won't be back for many years. That is reality.

$100K worth of training and a college degree is not required to make it in this career. I have seen too many succeed without it.

 

[waveflyer]

Pilotyip- I think your current needs for pilots would benefit by 1) lower wages industry wide-
2) pilots who go through their career w/o a college degree
both help you find-and retain- pilots to fly for a wage low enough to support YOUR company's economic situation
----------------
bring up the bird- I'm sorry-we disagree- I don't have a ton of ego- but I've done this job in both world's we are talking about- the modern world helps us get through our day safer and easier than it once did- but we have never gotten paid for the day to day routine- we get paid to be ready for the once in a career 'let's's see if everyone lives or dies' , and the once a month doozy- those moments require every bit of the talent and expertise as anything in the past.
I just don't accept that argument-
unless of course you're an old guy who likes to get nostalgic and beat his chest about 'how much better we were back in the day' -
thinking that doesn't make it true -

 

[pilotyip]

Not a college degree discussion

2) pilots who go through their career w/o a college degree
both help you find-and retain- pilots to fly for a wage low enough to support YOUR company's economic situation-

Not sure I follow your logic. Shall we get into a discussion about the need for a college degree to succeed in life? BTW If this is true why does SWA hire guys without college degrees? Could it be they are great guys, fantastic experience, and prove themselves more suitable to the job than the 1000’s of degred guys not hired by SWA?

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Yip, what he is saying is that with just their pilots licenses and no degree they are kind of stuck looking for pilot jobs as they are qualified for little else. But you could argue that people with aviation degrees are not much more marketable then guys with no degree. Regardless, and I disagree with Yips argument, You will be into a pilot license for at least $60,000 to get the minimum ratings.

And from that press release it looks to me like this is the start of getting Multi Crew Pilots license into the united states. That little one line "Academic experience for Flight experience" is the one that is going to hurt the most. What that means is they will allow people to use simulators and academic experience to get in the cockpit of 121 operations without ever having to touch a real airplane. They are going to pass legislation saying they are making things safer and will slide less experienced people in the cockpit.

 

[waveflyer]

yip, i'm always happy to have the "degree" OR not to "degree" discussion.... I have strong feelings that a degree for most people is an amazingly valuable thing. The return on investment is incredible.
But...
- it's never a guarantee- a person's drive and attitudes will determine success. School is one place to develop that drive.- i went to school with a lot of guys who never developed or truly learned while getting their degree. And a whole lot of people who did- myself included. I really developed and learned a lot getting that degree- the most valuable of which wasn't the knowledge- it was the discipline and work ethic getting the grade instilled. College is a place where we put ourselves in challenging situations, so that we can develop the skills to overcome them. For me, at some point, the world went from moving faster than me, to me moving much faster than the world. I would not be as successful or happy without my college experiences.
A degree isn't necessarily required for success and happiness- but a thirst for learning is.
I don't think you are arguing that a person can become successful while remaining ignorant? You're just saying that the "Good Will Hunting" library card is actually a smarter way to gain the knowledge? Through job experience?
I think the classroom is just that. It's a cog in the wheel for learning- but bouncing theories off the other classmates and pushing each other has it's place.

There's a stat that said a college degree reduces your chance of becoming a millionaire by xx percent. The reason is b/c you're so employable you dont' take the risk to start your own business. you sit back fairly comfortable- not rich- not poor.

Bottom line in the pilot world. Those of us with a degree do much much better than those of us who don't. And it's not close. Those that slip through tend to be very well connected. Well over 90% of major airline pilots have degrees. And ask Albie- but maybe 80%+ of regional pilots. It's a liability you will have to explain in an interview. Can you overcome it? Sure- but why not do the schoolwork? Why would you NOT get a degree? To HR people, who at the major level all have Master's or equivalent- it raises some eyebrows. Pilots go where when they are first hired?
To class?
A degree shows you're capable of doing well in a class environment.
To not get a degree when well over 90% of your peers do... what attitudes do you have?

It just raises a lot of questions that, right or wrong, will get asked.

Again- from all your posts, it sounds like youre stumping for your own agenda.

 

[pilotyip]

OK let’s go back to basics. My posts are a college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. I have agreed it may open some doors in the hiring process at the upper end, but then SWA continues to hire guys without degrees, because they fit the bill. BTw there are so many ways to prove yourself besides college. How a about a high school grad who goes through Army flight training, transitions to fixed wing, has he proved anything? How a high school grad who completes the Navy's Nuclear Power Plant Operator course, something only about 5% of the people on this board could complete, has he proven anything, and lastly a guy like Bill Gates who found college a boring mess of regurgitated stuff and dropped out to start his own company, has he proven anything? There are many ways to prove yourself college is only one, and it may be the easier of the many paths.

 

[Jiminmem]

If they are changing the minimum requirements to 1500 hours and an ATP, I believe they should allow military time as a quailfier. Especially if any college or Gulfstream like program can be used instead as a way around the hour requirements. I'm sure if would be an easy change, probably something we should lobby for.

I'm straight civilian, but understand their 1000 hour pilots are quite different from a civilian 1000 hours. Not to start a war, just there training is much more intense. Do some make in through that have no business being in the cockpit, sure, but a much smaller percentage.

 

[pipejockey]

I have nothing against higher pilot pay. I just do not believe the present economic business model will support it. We have to remember many of these paxs buying low-fare tickets may elect not to travel at higher prices.

Yip, you probably have not thought the economic conditions have been able to support higher wages than are currently paid since 2000, am I correct? Those economic times will never be seen again in this industry. Not as long as aircraft are being powered with a finite amount of oil that is running out.

But you didn't address the point I made. How are pilot positions going to be filled if the military's tougher entrance requirements and completion standards are brought to the airlines? As you know, back in 2008 when the industry announced the cutbacks, due to high oil prices, the regionals were scraping the bottom of the barrel and hiring freshly licensed commercial pilots. Thats 250 hours. I actually heard of a 180 hour new hire, I guess that is the time required at one of those part141 pilot factories for a commercial. So how do you raise standards when they can't even get what was required back before 1999 or so of 1500/500 without raising pay? I say the industry needs to bite the bullet and raise wages at the airlines, expecially regionlas and if it takes a capacity cut due to higher fares then so be it. The traveling public can't have everything. They shout they want well trained and professional pilots, they shout they want low fares, they shout they want frequency, they shout that want larger planes, they shout they want better service, they shout, they shout, they shout, they shout and they shout!!!! All the while they are paying the same amount to travel as they did in the 1970's. You could fly JFK-LAX Roundtrip for $200. Guess what, 30 years later it's still 200 bucks. PATHETIC!!!! Yet upper management's and the executives pay has increased many times beyond that of inflation, while our has gone down many times LESS than inflation. Why is it the industries current economic condition continues to support their over inflated wages but we can't even get back 2001 wages?

 

[pipejockey]

No one in their right mind can expect the best and brightest among us to choose a profession where you shell out 50 to 100 grand for a 4 year degree and flight training and not be guaranteed a good wage right from start. Especially when you are likely to get stuck at a regional for your entire career.
__________________
Embry Riddle would disagree with this statement. I know someone who is paying to have his son do just that. Sorry, but the reality is we have thousands of qualified pilots on the street today and they would love to have any job they can get. I saw our last furloughed class turning in their books after 9/11 in 2001. They won't be back for many years. That is reality.

Then why did the regionals lower their mins from 1500/500 to 300/50 in 2008 when hiring suddenly stopped due to the cutback announcements. And who are these furloughs you speak of from 9-11 that won't be back for many years? Unless you are at AA I know of no furloughs from 9-11 that haven;t been offered recall everywhere else.

 

[pipejockey]

$100K worth of training and a college degree is not required to make it in this career. I have seen too many succeed without it.

Yip, when are you going to get off your rhetoric about not needing a college degree? To get to a major airline without a 4 year degree is 4%. Check and see how many guys at the majors don't have college degrees. It's 4%! Now the regionals and 135 operators are another story. But no one gets into this profession for those ratty jobs. They are supposed to be "paying your dues" jobs, but since mainline pilots won't do whats necessary to get the rj's on their property, the ratty jobs are all most are going to have in this inustry. And no matter how many times these new guys are told, they just have to find out for themselves all the while they could actually be making something of themselves in something with a future.

 

[pilotyip]

mis read

Yip, when are you going to get off your rhetoric about not needing a college degree? ..................... out for themselves all the while they could actually be making something of themselves in something with a future.

misread, going to a 4 yr school right out of high and getting your comm/inst/mel as part of degree program and being saddled with a $100K of debt is not the only way to enter this career. Unless the family pays for it and it becomes free. I have never said you do not need a college degree. But the college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Many have posted they agree it has nothing to do with the mastering on an airplane. It has been posted that I am anti-college degree. Nothing could is further from the truth. The country needs all the college-educated citizens it can have, its raises the level of knowledge to keep this as the greatest country in the world. Real degrees in business, engineering, the sciences, math, and medicine provide a graduate with marketable skills. If you are going to go to college, get a real degree from a real university. Do not spend four years getting a degree in French History. I have admitted that the possession of a degree may open doors at a few select places of employment in the airline industry. If a potential pilot feels they will only be pleased in life if they get an interview with FedEx, then that prospective pilot should go to college. If a prospective pilots just loves flying airplanes, and would be happy making $70-$100K per year with no debt from college loans, a college degree is not necessary. Many prospective pilots may be steered into attending college when they are not college material, not because of a lack basic intelligence, but because it is not important to them. These pilots want to get on with their lives flying airplanes. I have seen too many non-degreed pilots reach a good career position with out a degree. But then my focus is on job satisfaction and not upon pay, respect, and prestige. It is about the joy of flying an airplane. Others out there may feel the same motivation I do. I have seen non-degreed guys go to the Nationals in their mid-20’s. My advice is go to school part time or community college and fly, pilots get hired because they have flight time. Flt time moves you up the food chain to better jobs; the degree is not needed until the last step. You can go to school part time with a full time flying job, do your on-line degree, at age 25 have a BS/BA and 3000-4000 hours of flt time. You cannot build real flight time while going to school full time.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I think the new requirement for -121 pilots should be an ATP and a PhD (or MD). Obviously, having a PhD would automatically make the individual a better pilot! I think that USA Jet just started requiring a PhD!

cliff
NBO

 

[pilotyip]

no Phd

Hi!

I think the new requirement for -121 pilots should be an ATP and a PhD (or MD). Obviously, having a PhD would automatically make the individual a better pilot! I think that USA Jet just started requiring a PhD!

cliff
NBO

don't mean nuttin, Phd's are easier to get than the ATP. Pay your fee, get your "B". We had a Phd pilot went 1.5 hrs with no comm while discussing the meaning of life with the other pilot.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Yeah RH, I was just pulling your chain!!!

cliff
NBO
PS-I was in Juba, Sudan a few days ago, and heard this: "Ethiopian XXXX, the cows have now moved away, so you are cleared for takeoff runway 31." Not very nice...cows on the runway!

 

[pilotyip]

steak dinner after the collision?

Hi!

Yeah RH, I was just pulling your chain!!!

cliff
NBO
PS-I was in Juba, Sudan a few days ago, and heard this: "Ethiopian XXXX, the cows have now moved away, so you are cleared for takeoff runway 31." Not very nice...cows on the runway!

think about the up side

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Hi!

Yeah RH, I was just pulling your chain!!!

cliff
NBO
PS-I was in Juba, Sudan a few days ago, and heard this: "Ethiopian XXXX, the cows have now moved away, so you are cleared for takeoff runway 31." Not very nice...cows on the runway!

Sounds like they missed a great chance to pick up some extra free dinners.

 

[livin'thesim]

Bull. Instructors spend nearly all their time in simulated IMC. You cannot replace actual line flying experience in IMC conditions.

And double bull to you.

You have no idea what you are talking about. When an instructor is working a student in a high-density area doing approaches in a multi-engine aircraft, it barely matters whether it is actual IMC or not (though I have plenty of both).

A low-time FO in a regional jet is far more of a "passenger" than the MEI in real weather.

It's really too bad you have a thing against instructors. Or maybe you just didn't learn much from being one.

 

[livin'thesim]

Why just regional FO's? Why will mainline FO's be able to log time but RJ FO's can't?

I think you missed the point of my post.

 

[414Flyer]

no one here can argue for the ridiculous 3 choice memorization ritual known as our writtens. They are moronic.

If you're too dumb or lazy to get through a JAA type academic program- you shouldn't be flying.
If you don't like modeling after europeans - then let's model the academics in the civilian world after the US navy.

The JAA curriculum is totally an exercise in rote memorization. If you think its bad that the FAA tests are that way, well the JAA is like 6 months of rote memorization, and much of it is just memorize, take the test, and then forget it all.

How is memorizing a lot of useless knowledge, just to take a test on it, any better when its months and months worth? Because much of it is entirely useless too.

 

[waveflyer]

I haven't been through the JAA program- I've been through my schools which were fairly difficult and provided a decent foundation while stepping through my initial experience-

My beef is with programs that give a student a gleim study book - end up passing written tests in much easier forums- and then it's off to build experience towing gliders or banners in clear vfr all day--- that pilot is weaker and should be weeded out-

How weak undisciplined pilots are weeded out, I don't care and is the point of this thread.
There are many different paths to excellence in aviation.
We can recognize this while acknowledging that there are also many different paths to mediocrity and outright incompetence. And I've seen weak pilots at just about every step-from being a student, to my peers instructing, fellow FOs and captains at commuters and regionals - and now at each major I've worked
at.

We need a process that weeds them out- and my vote is to require more rigorous academics in line with a legal bar exam. If you are not smart enough nor disciplined enough to make it through- piss off-- they'll be a good pilot knocked out every now and then- but 90% who couldn't make it through are the ones dragging down this industry.

 

[turn&pull]

Low time or high time...High education or No education...Military or Civilian...

None of it really matters. There are some people that "get it" and some that "don't" and at this stage they never will. They might "get it" enough to squeak through the system but when the "... hits the fan", you better hang on to your hat.

 

[pilotyip]

Great Idea

I haven't been through the JAA program- I've been through my schools which were fairly difficult and provided a decent foundation while stepping through .........ou are not smart enough nor disciplined enough to make it through- piss off-- they'll be a good pilot knocked out every now and then- but 90% who couldn't make it through are the ones dragging down this industry.

Great idea lets make score like a 28 on the ACT or a 1250 on the SAT a requirement to get an ATP. That would certainly cut down the number of people who would qualify for an ATP. No college required but just basic intelligence. That would eliminate about 80% of the people getting into flying today.

 

[Penguin46]

Agree and would add....

In addition the pilot profession paid well and thus attracted many applicants. This created a demand signal. Side, for profit, industries were formed to satisfy this demand (Univ. programs, pilot mills, etc...) The industry has got "too efficient" at supplying pilots, thus the current oversupply and lower compensation. Technology made the skill set less demanding and further increased the supply.

 

[jmreii]

Any industry that refuses to compensate their people wisely will have trouble recruiting and retaining the best and the brightest people that industry has to offer hands down, and "wee wee" on any other noises!