new NWA payrates?

[xjhawk]

is it true NWA agreed that their pilots get the 70 seat planes? And if so, will a NWA guy or gal agree to work at industry rates? That would be truely amazing. imagine this scene, a fourlouged NWA guy who is now a captain at Pinnaple, quiting to make 24 bucks an hour to be a NWA FO in a shiny new CRJ. I am not wanting their pilots to give in, but that sounds rediculous.

 

[General Lee]

is it true NWA agreed that their pilots get the 70 seat planes? And if so, will a NWA guy or gal agree to work at industry rates? That would be truely amazing. imagine this scene, a fourlouged NWA guy who is now a captain at Pinnaple, quiting to make 24 bucks an hour to be a NWA FO in a shiny new CRJ. I am not wanting their pilots to give in, but that sounds rediculous.

They would likely go directly into the left seat, and at the longevity (year number) they had at NW---like a 5 year Captain rate. I doubt that would be 24 dollars, but you never know!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dutch]

You think the furloughed NWA guys would be recalled into a left seat? Doesn't sound right to me.

 

[Yudso]

70 seaters will not bring back nwa furloughs. They will only mitigate future furloughs when the 9's are replaced. As far as direct to the left seat at their current longevity, 10 year crj captains are a bargain compared to a 10 year dc9 fo.

 

[SplitBar]

Doesn't sound right but thats how J4J's goes down.

 

[General Lee]

You think the furloughed NWA guys would be recalled into a left seat? Doesn't sound right to me.

Into the left seat of new 70 seat RJs? You bet. When we recalled guys in '96 some went into the left seat of Delta Express 737-200s immediately. If any future NW pilots are furloughed, you better believe it that they should go into the left seat of planes that are replacing their current DC9s. And, it will probably be negotiated that way. Didn't USAir do that with Mesa and PSA also? It could happen again.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Yep, more than likely, that'll be the flavor of whatever J4J deal that goes down with the little red tails... Hold on, cause it's gonna pinch quite a bit for everyone involved...

 

[XJ-spartacus]

If you think the pilots at Mesaba are going to give the left seat up to a non-XJ pilot, you must be NWA mainline. There is NO WAY that we are giving up the left seat in any plane that is on our property. If JFJ does make it in, ALPA will make it's way out. JFJ would be the dumbest thing that ALPA could do at Mesaba. If they try that crap hear, I will be the first in line to kick ALPA out.

-Spartacus

 

[ultrarunner]

If new birds show up on property, there would simply be vacancy award, right? And after that bid closes, it may or may not result in recalls, right? I would think recalled NWA pilots would go into the seat their seniority could hold or on what ever is open after the vacancy.

 

[de Pez]

If you think the pilots at Mesaba are going to give the left seat up to a non-XJ pilot, you must be NWA mainline. There is NO WAY that we are giving up the left seat in any plane that is on our property. If JFJ does make it in, ALPA will make it's way out. JFJ would be the dumbest thing that ALPA could do at Mesaba. If they try that crap hear, I will be the first in line to kick ALPA out.

-Spartacus

Does XJ own the aircraft?

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Short answer... Most of of the aircraft are owned by NW and on lease back to XJ...

 

[Dutch]

I can't see recalls into the left seat if the aircraft are on NWA property. If operated by a third party, maybe.

 

[XJ-spartacus]

First of all, NWA owns most of the planes at Pinnacle and Mesaba. The pilots at XJ have no control over what aircraft they fly, but they have absolute control over who will fly them. Seniority at NWA is in no way connected to seniority at Mesaba or Pinnacle. Just because NWA may own the aircraft, that doesn't have any connection to the pilots at NWA having the right to fly them. If that was reality, current fuloughed NWA guys/gals would be flying Saabs and CRJ's right now.
Second, JFJ only works when there is a position to go back to at mainline. NWA in it's height of growth only hired 30 a month. With the 9's going away, NWA stands to lose 2000 pilot jobs. If you factor in record call backs, it would take over 5 years to rehire those pilots back. All of this is predicated on the fact that more flying won't be outsourced, which we know isn't the truth.
Everyone knows that the airline industry is cyclical. Do you really think there will be a five year hiring frenzy? Now factor in the difference in payrates between the Saab and the 70 seat CRJ. Take that 30 thousand difference and times that by 5. Does anyone in there right mind expect a pilot to give up 150,000 dollars of their money to take one for the team? Now your going to say they will have a number with mainline when everything pans out, which wouldn't work for one huge obvious reason. Pinnacle and Champion, and Mesaba would all have to flow up in some convaluted order.
So bottom line is that Pinnacle hired furloughed NWA pilots into the right seat, and XJ would be asked to hire them into the left, but both would share equally in a flow through.
If you are number 150 or higher at XJ, Pinnacle, or Champion, this might work out for you in the long run. But for the rest of the pilots below these seniority numbers, there would be no benefit at all to play the JFJ game. None.

Corporate ownership of an aircraft means nothing. XJ pilots will fly aircraft at XJ, Pinnacle pilots will fly aircraft at Pinnacle, and NWA pilots will fly aircraft at NWA.

-Spartacus

 

[DoinTime]

10 year crj captains are a bargain compared to a 10 year dc9 fo.

NWA 10 year DC-9 (100-140 seats) FO = $82/hour
PCL 10 year CRJ (44-50 seats) captain = $72/hour

The pay discrepency gap is closing.

 

[Dodge]

Not really. The 10 year 9 FO has virtually no responsibility. The 10 year CRJ CA at gate C7 is held to the fire for everything that the rampies do while on break at A6. Huge discrepency, IMHO.

 

[Going2Baja]

I just heard from a current 757 f/o that most everything was setteled but NWA was fighting over furlough recall placements whatever that means???

I think keep it all in house, replace the 9's with new jungle jets under a new working contract. Since the seats will come down to 76 this will mean recalls and I'll be happy in the left seat based in LAX...wait - if I'm dreamin' make it SAN. Yeah - SAN based EMB190 Capt at $60/hr. OUCH!!!!! Oh well, someone has to do it right???

Or just burn the place down and all my NWA stuff will go up in value and be in the same league as Pan Am or Eastern relic's.

Baja.

 

[XJdriver]

I think that J4J is headed our way at Mesaba. The one problem is these 70 seaters are a direct replacement for the Avro also, not just the DC9. I think we are not going to have any say in the matter. NWA is going to put the 70 seater out for bid and say here is so many 70 seat airplane and here is all of these NW pilots who are going to be in the left seat at this pay. Figure out a way to make it work. If Mesaba MEC refuses then there may not be a Mesaba and someone else will have to deal with it and get the planes. I know one thing for sure and that is that we won't have a say in the matter. If this really does happen I can see it being another 5 years before I can think of an upgrade here if I am lucky. I just love the thought of flying right seat with a pissed off Northwest pilot complaining all the time telling me somehow this is all my fualt.

Let the games begin.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I think that J4J is headed our way at Mesaba. The one problem is these 70 seaters are a direct replacement for the Avro also, not just the DC9. I think we are not going to have any say in the matter. NWA is going to put the 70 seater out for bid and say here is so many 70 seat airplane and here is all of these NW pilots who are going to be in the left seat at this pay. Figure out a way to make it work. If Mesaba MEC refuses then there may not be a Mesaba and someone else will have to deal with it and get the planes. I know one thing for sure and that is that we won't have a say in the matter. If this really does happen I can see it being another 5 years before I can think of an upgrade here if I am lucky. I just love the thought of flying right seat with a pissed off Northwest pilot complaining all the time telling me somehow this is all my fualt.

Let the games begin.

Unless someone can work out the "contract problems", ie J4J, it's more likely we will see a whole new regional. Cost wise it's not that much, and it allows NWA to charge new lease rates that can't be achieved at the current regionals. Remember NWA makes money off leases, it's really not a factor of who can bid the lowest.

 

[filejw]

When the contract goes out the terms will be included.You either bid or you don't.

 

[XJ-spartacus]

XJ Driver,

Yes, the pilots at Mesaba have absolute control over who will fly on their property. NWA management doesn't care about the fuloughed NWA guys. If a regional tells mainline that they will hire furloughs into the right seat as new hires, NWA management wouldn't care either way. The initial offer is just that, an initial offer to satisfy the current NWA pilots who will lose their jobs. So are you saying that Mesaba should place furloughed NWA guys in the left seat, when at the same time Pinnacle hires them into the right? If this really is a race to the bottom, Mesaba would be the absolute bottom of the pile. JFJ has no place in the regionals.
What if that furloughed NWA guy is a former MESA pilot? Do you really want to give up 150,000 dollars of your money to save his position at ANOTHER company? What happens when it takes longer than his recall rights last to get called back? Those that don't get called back in time will be permanent members of the Mesaba family? No other issue will divide this union like this one. Like I said before, if JFJ makes it's way into Mesaba I'll be the first one to start a campaign to have ALPA removed. Mainline has never cared about the regionals until they started using them as life boats.

-Spartacus

Like a very close friend of mine once said, "I'd rather be a martyr than a whore". That's my new motto for all of this crap.

 

[dbrownie]

They would likely go directly into the left seat, and at the longevity (year number) they had at NW---like a 5 year Captain rate. I doubt that would be 24 dollars, but you never know!


Bye Bye--General Lee

General Lee;

It my understanding is that we will let "someone" fly a 70-100 seat jet.

Part of the deal is that the furloughed guys must be offered a seat there.

This will be the replacement for the DC-9 of which we have over 150 right

now! This is not just a "jets for jobs" issue but a outsorce of our flying.

Like all this crap the devil is in the details.

Dave B

 

[Max Powers]

The media has reported that NWA Mec has given up 76 seat and less flying......No word on j4j which I find unlikely to happen due to upcoming retirements. Also, no word on how many planes will be allowed.

Good Luck NWA pilots fight hard don't fall into their game of divide and conquer

 

[DoinTime]

General Lee;

It my understanding is that we will let "someone" fly a 70-100 seat jet.

Part of the deal is that the furloughed guys must be offered a seat there.

This will be the replacement for the DC-9 of which we have over 150 right

now! This is not just a "jets for jobs" issue but a outsorce of our flying.

Like all this crap the devil is in the details.

Dave B

I have read the full text of the RFP and nowhere is there any requirement for a J4J arrangement. A preferential hiring arrangement is likely but it is unlikely that any special seniority provisions will apply. If Mesaba prevails in this bid I would also doubt that they would bring in any mainline guys until all of their furloughs were recalled.

Something that may be valid is a furloughed mainliner being able to carry in longevity for pay purposes only. If the mainline pilots truly have put together a "regional" pay and benefit package to operate SJ's this would result in no net loss for those that get furloughed.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I have read the full text of the RFP and nowhere is there any requirement for a J4J arrangement. A preferential hiring arrangement is likely but it is unlikely that any special seniority provisions will apply. If Mesaba prevails in this bid I would also doubt that they would bring in any mainline guys until all of their furloughs were recalled.

Something that may be valid is a furloughed mainliner being able to carry in longevity for pay purposes only. If the mainline pilots truly have put together a "regional" pay and benefit package to operate SJ's this would result in no net loss for those that get furloughed.

That RFP was put out before J4J is being negotiated, it will change if and when NWA finalizes their contract.

 

[Yudso]

Even money says there'll be an extension until Friday. Any takers?

 

[PCL_128]

I have read the full text of the RFP and nowhere is there any requirement for a J4J arrangement.

The RFP and the NWA pilot CBA are two completely seperate documents. The RFP was sent out by NWA management when there was no agreement with the pilots in sight. That has changed. An agreement now seems to be getting close, and the scope issue has mostly been settled from what I'm hearing. If NWA decides to send the <76-seat flying to one of the current regionals rather than creating a new wholly-owned subsidiary, then I would bet my life on a J4J proposal being part of it. It's coming down the pike. Get ready for it.

 

[Waylon]

Friday at the earliest. As long as they can show the judge progress is being made he will keep extending the deadline. I am sure he doesn't want to make the decision. Remember this is not a criminal case the judge isn't there to decide who is right or wrong but rather to make sure the company survives. If he imposes a contract and a strike happens he is not doing his job.

 

[i fly boxes]

I am ignorant to what actually goes on inside the courtroom, but it seems to me like this judge has the easiest job out of anyone, every time they come to him he just says, take more time. What does he actually do? Where do I apply?

 

[dbrownie]

An agreement now seems to be getting close, and the scope issue has mostly been settled from what I'm hearing. If NWA decides to send the <76-seat flying to one of the current regionals rather than creating a new wholly-owned subsidiary, then I would bet my life on a J4J proposal being part of it. It's coming down the pike. Get ready for it.

PCL;

I think you are right. The <76 or less flying will be bid on by one of the regionals. Part of the deal will be that some of the seats must be filled by laid off NWA pilots. If Mesaba doesn't like the terms than Pinnacle will get the jets. That is how it will be sold to our membership.

(in my opinion)
Dave B

 

[General Lee]

PCL;

I think you are right. The <76 or less flying will be bid on by one of the regionals. Part of the deal will be that some of the seats must be filled by laid off NWA pilots. If Mesaba doesn't like the terms than Pinnacle will get the jets. That is how it will be sold to our membership.

(in my opinion)
Dave B

dave,

I hope you do get that, since your DC9s will be replaced by those new jets.

Bye Bye--General Lee