New Law for Pilots

[passion4flying]

Has anybody heard of the new legislation passed Jan 24, 03, allowing the TSA to do a security check of everyone (mechanics, pilots, and the like) with a FAA license. Scuttlebut is that if you are deemed a security threat, TSA can recommend to the FAA that they pull your licenses. When the FAA takes your livelihood away your only recourse is back to the TSA (the people who took it in the first place). There is more to this, I am trying to see how well known this new security measure is known around the corporate industry. Let me know what you think. I believe that we need to know what the government can do to us and for what reasons. All discussion is welcome.

Passion

 

[2000flyer]

Yes, it is true, any TSA official may take you're certificate if they deem necessary. Also, as it reads, law enforcement officers may do the same.

Here is a link to the final ruling: TSA

2000Flyer

 

[750driver]

Yes, it is true, any TSA official may take you're certificate if they deem necessary. Also, as it reads, law enforcement officers may do the same.

Here is a link to the final ruling: TSA

2000Flyer

Wonderful news .... if someone is going to yank my ticket, at the very least, I would want them to be able to speak English first.

 

[skyward80]

Careful... they have to notify the FAA in writing. The FAA can take action from there. NEVER let ANYBODY (FAA, TSA or otherwise) even touch your licenses. They can look at them and that is it. It they want to get their greasy mits on them, let the Feds go through the right channels and do a certificate action of some sort. Handing your certificate to somebody such as the FAA--even to make a copy--could be seen as you surrendering your certificate and eliminates many legal avenues of recourse. Know your rights. (Surprisingly, we do have a few.)

Skyward80

 

[2000flyer]

NEVER let ANYBODY (FAA, TSA or otherwise) even touch your licenses. They can look at them and that is it. It they want to get their greasy mits on them, let the Feds go through the right channels and do a certificate action of some sort. Handing your certificate to somebody such as the FAA--even to make a copy--could be seen as you surrendering your certificate and eliminates many legal avenues of recourse. Know your rights. (Surprisingly, we do have a few.)

Skyward80

While I wouldn't physically let an FAA, or TSA for that matter, hold my certificate, it is a myth that handing them your certificate is an act of surrendering it to them. They have a right for "inspection" to see (and hold) your certificate. However, they HAVE TO TELL YOU that taking your certificate for surrender. They have absolutely no right to "inspect" your certificate, then keep it. AOPA did an article on that a few months ago. I'll search through my back issues for the exact wording and I'll post it when I find it.

However, that being said, how many times have you asked two (or more) different FSDO's a question and gotten two (or more) different answers! As we all know, there are some inspectors who can be over zealous in their actions. Now, add the TSA, especially the ones we interact with on a daily basis (baggage screeners, etc.) whom I'm SURE have little to no clue of the FAA regulations regarding certificate inspection.

2000Flyer

 

[2000flyer]

Inspection...not Surrender

In response to my above post on certificate inspection. Please see the June 2002 issue for the complete text.

The regulatory requirements are contained in FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i). These regulations require a pilot to "present" for "inspection" certain pilot documents upon the reasonable request of certain officials. Yes, in answer to one of the frequently asked questions, the request must be "reasonable." While the word reasonable appears in only one of the two provisions — FAR 61.51(i) — it has been interpreted to apply to both. The concept of reasonableness is narrower than one might expect.

…Assuming an FAA request would be considered reasonable in this context, what about that intriguing question: "Can I physically hold on to my certificate while the inspector looks at it?" I don't know that a pilot needs to go that far, as long as the inspector is made to understand that "present" for "inspection" does not mean "surrender." Most inspectors are conscientious in doing their jobs and well understand the difference, but there have been some isolated misunderstandings. A pilot may be merely presenting his certificates for inspection, as the regulations require, but the FAA inspector may view it as a voluntary surrender of the certificates. The pilots asking the intriguing question are quite right in assuming that the FAA inspector has no authority to take the certificates (except by way of a very formal and legalistic procedure in which a pilot has rights of appeal to the NTSB). Holding on to the certificates may be an effective way of ensuring that the inspector understands that the pilot is not surrendering the certificates. There may be other, less confrontational ways of making this clear.

I faced this situation once years ago. A well-dressed gentleman, purporting to be an FAA inspector, was meeting all aircraft as they arrived at the Frederick airport, and asking the pilots to see their certificates. The inspector was acting very professionally in doing his job, and I wouldn't fault him for that, but I didn't get the feeling that he appreciated the uncomfortable position he was putting the pilots in. Since I didn't know him, I politely asked to see his FAA credentials before I would produce mine. He was obviously taken aback. Apparently no other pilot had asked him to identify himself. To his credit he quickly realized the propriety of my request and showed me his credentials, which he carefully guarded (held on to!). I then showed him my certificates. I believe that after our exchange, he had a better appreciation of the intimidation pilots naturally feel when faced with such a request. There was no question that I was surrendering my certificates to him any more than he was surrendering his credentials to me. As long as the inspector understands that there is no voluntary surrender, a pilot may hand them over for the brief period necessary for the inspector to "inspect" them.

With regard to the possibility of confusion between surrender and presentation for inspection, pilots should be aware that there is an FAR right on point. FAR 61.27, which relates to pilot and flight instructor certificates, first states the obvious, that a certificate holder may voluntarily surrender a certificate for cancellation. Then it goes on to provide that any such request by a certificate holder must include the following signed statement or its equivalent: "This request is made for my own reasons, with full knowledge that my (insert name of certificate or rating, as appropriate) may not be reissued to me unless I again pass the tests prescribed for its issuance." If an FAA inspector ever argues that you made a voluntary surrender of your pilot or instructor certificate, you should remind him or her that you never signed such a statement as required by the rule. That should settle the argument. There is no similar provision in the regulations for medical certificates.

 

[sydeseet]

Good post about an ol' "wive's tale." Our POI discussed the very same rule with me recently. He too stated that the "give it to me and I can keep it" myth about certificates is nothing more than an urban legend. Any FAA inspector that says otherwise is on an ego trip.

 

[passion4flying]

while all this is good information, I was wondering what pilots thought of the new law in dealing with security issues. i.e. the way the law was passed with no review, or the recourse the pilots have back to the same agency.

Passion

 

[skyward80]

sydeseet:

It may be an old wives' tale, but it's the FAA boys on their ego trip that I worry about. As for me, you may look at them, but I won't let you touch them. It's true that most FAA personnel are friendly and quite helpful (I fly with one of them from time to time on the weekends), but it would be just my luck to run into one who is having a bad day.

2000flyer made an excellent point about asking for credentials. Always a good idea.

In response to Passion4flying... I think it's typical bureaucratic bulls*** that this wasn't publicized more. Imagine if it had been... there would have been an uproar. I think the very thought of some high school reject, pencil neck, pimple faced little freak thinking he can go a few rounds with me is nothing less than insulting. Did everyone forget that 9/11 was organized and executed by terrorists who had received pilot training and NOT by aviation professionals who have been in the business for decades?!

Airport security in the US has always been a joke in comparison to what other countries have. I only see it getting worse.

Skyward80

 

[Iceman21]

AOPA has stepped up to the plate on the TSA ruling and brought it to daylight. Members of Congress are now taking a look at the ruling again and many have seen some actions that are in question of Constitutionality.

I don't know but I know all hell will break loose if some schmuck in suit walks to my door and tells me I am a security threat, and not tell me what they feel makes me such a threat.

Lucy would have some splaining to do.

 

[slickmagneto]

ALL ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS

In my infant stage of aviation I had the opportunity to fly with a crusty old captain that appeared to know every reg in the book.I saw this man make FAA guys wished they had chosen some other aircraft to ramp check. Of the things I learned from this man, here are three.

1. Make any official identify himself. (Federal,State,Local)
They are required to do so by law.

2. Never hand your ticket to anyone without the statement," I do not voluntarily surrender my certificate to you."

3. Have a witness.

 

[skyward80]

One thing about crusty old captains, they really have seen it all and often have wise words. I'd say the previous post is no exception.

Skyward80

 

[irapilot]

Right on about the "crusty old Captain".

So much of the interaction with the FAA depends on the inspector, and there are a number of them out there that are on an ego trip, power trip, whatever. I met an inspector the other day who is an examiner in a jet - he had no prior turbine time before his "training" - none.................

Watch yourself out there guys/gals...........

 

[731convert]

Has anybody heard of the new legislation passed Jan 24, 03, allowing the TSA to do a security check of everyone (mechanics, pilots, and the like) with a FAA license. Scuttlebut is that if you are deemed a security threat, TSA can recommend to the FAA that they pull your licenses. When the FAA takes your livelihood away your only recourse is back to the TSA (the people who took it in the first place). There is more to this, I am trying to see how well known this new security measure is known around the corporate industry. Let me know what you think. I believe that we need to know what the government can do to us and for what reasons. All discussion is welcome.

Passion

To get back to your question. The security check you are reffering to is for Pilots and Mech's that fall under 121 & 135 for the 10 year background check. I think the only Mech's that will fall under this are those who are in security risk areas. I think a corp. pilot may have to comply if you are on an airport that requires a badge, and that badge gives you unresticted access to the entire airport.

 

[passion4flying]

731Convert,

I don't think so. I believe that this is a security measure dealing with all pilots and mechanics in the United States. I am with a part 91 operator and my Director of Aviation brought this to our attention. 2000Flyer and information on this. I read the TSA information on it and they did not specify any kind of operator. Led me to believe it was for everybody.

Passion

 

[TAG2]

I have heard about the new law. It empowers TSA to take your ticket. My understanding is that it actually gives TSA more power than the FAA.

From now on when I airline, OFF with the "crew" tags on my bags. That way they won't know I'm a pilot if i get a little lippy .

 

[Lindy]

Recent post

This was discussed about two months back. Since then there has been certificate action taken against several pilots. I believe two didn't respond to the certificate action and two are fighting the certificate action.



I'm not sure where I read the story -- if it was an ALPA FastRead or an email from a friend w/ a news link, etc. If anyone else has seen the story, please post-it (I'm still looking).


Another topic: I was recently ramped and the FAA Inspector had his credentials on, i.e., he was wearing the badge. I did present my certificate and medical for inspection by laying it down on the counter in front of him. It wasn't intended to be confrontational, just easier as I was digging in my purse.......the end result was achieved. For an inspector to be out at 0215am, it was an (almost) pleasant experience.

 

[metrodriver]

This issue has been on several airline business websites and in magazines. AOPA an ALPA are fighting it, so maybe AOPA has it on their website.
In short: TSA has made it into law (without going through congress!) that it has the right to confiscate a pilots license if they deem this pilot a security risk. The pilots name has to be on a list of people suspected of terrorist activities. Here comes the scary part: everybody can call the TSA, FBI or other law enforcement agency and tell them that they suspect someone. This person comes on the list and if you're a pilot, they can take your ticket. Of course you want to fight it, which is your right, but this list is a secret list, and nobody has access to it, not even a lawyer. In other words: you can't defend yourself.
This is as it was published in January. I've heard they have changed the appeal process a little. I don't think they have changed the way how you get on the list. So watch out for people who really hate you....

 

[skyward80]

This bulls*** (and, mind you, that is exactly what this whole matter is) reminds me of two things. 1) The Salem witch hunts/"trials", and 2) the rise of McCarthyism and the hunt for communists in Post-WWII America. I have no doubt that eventually this new law will be exposed for all of its idiocy and the pendulum will swing the other direction. However, until that time comes about, this is a truly scary development.

Skyward80