New flight requirements for Commercial pilots

[Talian]

With the newly adopted idea of requiring every 121 pilot to have 1500 hours and an ATP, what do you guys think will happen to the supply of experienced pilots willing to work for regional pay when the economy gets better? Is it also true that this will apply to Pt. 135 operators?

 

[Flybywire44]

Airlines will start hiring foreigners and those who attend ERAU will only need 800 hours... Harvard of the Skies baby!

 

[Cpt Oveur]

the hourly requirement is lowered from 1500 hours for those who attended "approved school," but why does everyone think it's going to be ERAU, UND, Western Mich, Perdue, etc?

It very well might be 141 flight schools...

 

[FO 4 Life]

the hourly requirement is lowered from 1500 hours for those who attended "approved school," but why does everyone think it's going to be ERAU, UND, Western Mich, Perdue, etc?

It very well might be 141 flight schools...

Talk about flight school. I'm sure the chickens at Perdue will have no problems flying. Don't know if the grocery stores will like losing them though.

 

[CX880]

I don't think there are many dumb enough to spend 100-200k on flight training just so they can get 700hrs off this magical 1500 total time. Life time of debt vs a few more months of paying dues... Emory bdrible will no doubt suffer as will other pilot mills. Airlines will also have a hard time finding pilots, look what happened during the last wave and that was with commercial mins.

 

[sweptback]

the hourly requirement is lowered from 1500 hours for those who attended "approved school," but why does everyone think it's going to be ERAU, UND, Western Mich, Perdue, etc?

It very well might be 141 flight schools...

Because 141 schools aren't accredited and don't have degree programs.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Because 141 schools aren't accredited and don't have degree programs.

Now you did it. Wait until Pilotyip reads what you wrote and has a conniption. :laugh:

 

[rickair7777]

I don't think there are many dumb enough to spend 100-200k on flight training just so they can get 700hrs off this magical 1500 total time. Life time of debt vs a few more months of paying dues... Emory bdrible will no doubt suffer as will other pilot mills. Airlines will also have a hard time finding pilots, look what happened during the last wave and that was with commercial mins.

The last wave was fed by massive regional growth, which created an artificial need for more crews for the same pax volume.

This went beyond the legit regional niche...a few daily flights to Podunk Falls. Due to low cost, RJ's were thrown onto mainline routes, even hub-to-hub.

That growth will probably retrench going forward, never to be seen again. Ultimately smaller planes are not cost effective without a big labor pay disparity.

The one bonus RJ's have is higher frequency...five daily RJ's is more convenient than two daily narrowbodies. But I'm not sure that will be enough to keep them around in current quantities if (when) fuel and labor costs go up.

 

[time builder]

The last wave was fed by massive regional growth, which created an artificial need for more crews for the same pax volume.

This went beyond the legit regional niche...a few daily flights to Podunk Falls. Due to low cost, RJ's were thrown onto mainline routes, even hub-to-hub.

That growth will probably retrench going forward, never to be seen again. Ultimately smaller planes are not cost effective without a big labor pay disparity.

The one bonus RJ's have is higher frequency...five daily RJ's is more convenient than two daily narrowbodies. But I'm not sure that will be enough to keep them around in current quantities if (when) fuel and labor costs go up.

I've been saying the same thing for a few years now. If they're short pilots, all they have to do is reduce frequency of flights and go big. It's like they've been creating a buffer for the last decade with the regional boom.

 

[NoJoy]

If regionals can't find the pilots, then they will have to raise the first year pay plus add incentives. There is no reason why a pilots can not start out at $35,000 at a regional.
Also giving pilots who go to the "accredited" schools a break on total time is BS! The ATP rules should apply to everyone. Good pilots have different backgrounds including the P61 guys. 141 has some advantages, if you happen to live near a flight school that offers 141 training.

 

[atpcliff]

They ALREADY give the -141/university programs a break. You only need about 188 hours to get a commercial license in some of those programs.

 

[crj567]

Airlines will start hiring foreigners and those who attend ERAU will only need 800 hours... Harvard of the Skies baby!

They will START? When did they stop? This is the only country in the world where pretty much anyone can come, get a work visa and fly-with stupid low-time.... Try getting a job in any desirable part of the world as a low-time U.S. citizen....

-"Harvard of my ass"

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

It is, basically, impossible to come to the us to get a green card for a flying job. If you are a citizen, or already have a green card (which are VERY difficult to get), then you can get your FAA licenses and get a job.

LOTS of US pilots can go overseas, get a work permit, and get your license converted, even in Western Europe.

Foreign pilots with no right to work here, cannot get a job in the US.

 

[crj567]

Hi!

It is, basically, impossible to come to the us to get a green card for a flying job. If you are a citizen, or already have a green card (which are VERY difficult to get), then you can get your FAA licenses and get a job.

LOTS of US pilots can go overseas, get a work permit, and get your license converted, even in Western Europe.

Foreign pilots with no right to work here, cannot get a job in the US.

The many pilots I have flown with who barely speak english would beg to differ! Although they are GREAT GUYS whom I RESPECT and ADMIRE!

I think you are smoking crack, sir! (although I RESPECT and ADMIRE you!)

P.S.- I particularly RESPECT and ADMIRE your avatar! I want that bitch on my side in any barfight we may encounter!

 

[atpcliff]

They might barely speak English, but they had a US passport or green card and an FAA license before they were hired at your company(ies).

 

[brokeflyer]

ebony dribble needs to just close up and go away......thay havent produced much of anything in several years.

 

[Dornier 335]

This is the only country in the world where pretty much anyone can come, get a work visa and fly-with stupid low-time.... Try getting a job in any desirable part of the world as a low-time U.S. citizen....

The many pilots I have flown with who barely speak english would beg to differ!

That is incorrect and somewhat dangerous to state! The INS or whatever it is called now will not and has not given foreigners work visas for being a pilot. The most common work visa is the H1B and is strictly regulated in areas where there is a demonstrated shortage, i.e. nurses. Pilots never fell into that category. Your understanding of obtaining a visa/green card is also flawed, the H1B requires a company to sponsor that individual. Companies that do so are usually large, got a good HR department with good legal connections to the INS. I don't recall seeing any regional saying that they'll sponsor foreigners. On all websites I recalled it said "will not sponsor for visa". The risk for the sponsoring company is too high, and the employer cannot be changed without prior approval etc.

Another point is that the (starting) salaries at the US regionals are very low compared to other countries. In Europe, your starting salary would be around € 60,000 on RJ equipment. Point the finger to Mexico? Even Aeromexico Connect pilots would laugh at our face. Look at the grounded Mexicana fleet in MEX and you see senior pilots that (unfortunately) used to make over $200,000 flying the A320 fleet. The rest of Latin America? They're off to the ME with EK, etc.

They might barely speak English, but they had a US passport or green card and an FAA license before they were hired at your company(ies).

LOTS of US pilots can go overseas, get a work permit, and get your license converted, even in Western Europe.

Foreign pilots with no right to work here, cannot get a job in the US.

Cliff is right. Do some research before you post.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Because 141 schools aren't accredited and don't have degree programs.

The exemption will be given for any structured flight training. Part 141 is structured flight training, and they are accredited. To be part 141, you have to be approved and monitored by the FAA.

Part 61, that's a different story.

It isn't the college degree that is giving the exemption. It is the structured training (part 141). ERAU completes most of the flight training under part 141, as do most professional flight schools.

 

[CFI2766]

The exemption will be given for any structured flight training. Part 141 is structured flight training, and they are accredited. To be part 141, you have to be approved and monitored by the FAA.

Part 61, that's a different story.

It isn't the college degree that is giving the exemption. It is the structured training (part 141). ERAU completes most of the flight training under part 141, as do most professional flight schools.

Not to disagree needlessly, but what flight school isn't 'professional'? It sounds a lot like you are taking a shot at part 61 flight schools here.

It's very clear in the FOI publication from the FAA: The standards are the standards. Just because my ATP wasn't earned at a 141 school doesn't make me any less competent as a pilot or my level of certification any less.

Let's recognize this situation for what it is; the political influence and lobbying efforts of the ERAUs and Comair Academies (sic) have ensured that their existing business model will survive the next round of airline hiring.

 

[JetsRforKids]

There are plenty of pilots out there who would like to fly for a regional, but not for 20K a year. If they want to operate an airline, they will have to pay a quality wage. Experience costs money, and experience means more than 400 hrs. TT.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Not to disagree needlessly, but what flight school isn't 'professional'? It sounds a lot like you are taking a shot at part 61 flight schools here.

It's very clear in the FOI publication from the FAA: The standards are the standards. Just because my ATP wasn't earned at a 141 school doesn't make me any less competent as a pilot or my level of certification any less.

Let's recognize this situation for what it is; the political influence and lobbying efforts of the ERAUs and Comair Academies (sic) have ensured that their existing business model will survive the next round of airline hiring.

Glen,

The data has clearly shown that pilots who train at a school that is part 141 (structured training) do better in training. By professional school, I mean those schools that are in the business of turning out professional pilots. Surely you understand that some flight schools target the professional pilot crowd, and some just are the local flight school, right?

Yes. You can get your ratings part 61 and be just as qualified, but from the airline's perspective, it is difficult to determine if you received good training part 61 or not. The quality of a part 61 training program is nearly 100% determined by the motivation of the instructor. Part 141 has FAA oversight, and programs geared toward a student who is looking for a job in aviation.

The airlines have done their internal studies on who does better in training, and those data show that structured training is better on the whole.

 

[pilotyip]

the hourly requirement is lowered from 1500 hours for those who attended "approved school," but why does everyone think it's going to be ERAU, UND, Western Mich, Perdue, etc?

It very well might be 141 flight schools...

what about my militarty pilot with 1100 MEL TJ, EC-135 AC, would his training allow for a reduction?

 

[ASA_Aviator]

what about my militarty pilot with 1100 MEL TJ, EC-135 AC, would his training allow for a reduction?

Again, the plan is for "structured" training to provide a reduced min. I'm sure that military training is structured.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

what about my militarty pilot with 1100 MEL TJ, EC-135 AC, would his training allow for a reduction?

Yes, this counts for a reduction, as does a college degree.

 

[sayrejm]

Glen,

The data has clearly shown that pilots who train at a school that is part 141 (structured training) do better in training. By professional school, I mean those schools that are in the business of turning out professional pilots. Surely you understand that some flight schools target the professional pilot crowd, and some just are the local flight school, right?

Yes. You can get your ratings part 61 and be just as qualified, but from the airline's perspective, it is difficult to determine if you received good training part 61 or not. The quality of a part 61 training program is nearly 100% determined by the motivation of the instructor. Part 141 has FAA oversight, and programs geared toward a student who is looking for a job in aviation.

The airlines have done their internal studies on who does better in training, and those data show that structured training is better on the whole.

Training and real life are two different things. For crying out loud, I did ALL my training from private pilot glider to ATP part 61 at a local airport on the weekends. I have taught at both 141 pilot schools and part 61. Training part 61 I've always used the same syllabus they use at most 141 schools anyway. However, I have seen far more pencil whipping for 141 students than I have for 61 students.

It is not the school, it is the instructor and the attitude of the student. Period.

This argument will never and can never end with an inclusive and definitive answer. We are all wasting our time.

Edit* I hit reply to the wrong post but thats not really important. Just saying this to spare myself the comments otherwise.

Oh, and sometimes those 141 schools targeting professional students still elect to place that student in the part 61 program at their school. It is a different mold for different people.

 

[CX880]

Glen,

The data has clearly shown that pilots who train at a school that is part 141 (structured training) do better in training. By professional school, I mean those schools that are in the business of turning out professional pilots. Surely you understand that some flight schools target the professional pilot crowd, and some just are the local flight school, right?

Yes. You can get your ratings part 61 and be just as qualified, but from the airline's perspective, it is difficult to determine if you received good training part 61 or not. The quality of a part 61 training program is nearly 100% determined by the motivation of the instructor. Part 141 has FAA oversight, and programs geared toward a student who is looking for a job in aviation.

The airlines have done their internal studies on who does better in training, and those data show that structured training is better on the whole.

It has nothing to do with pt 141 or pt61, It has to do with the type of training the individual gets. There is no reason why a pt141 should be "better" than pt61 your all training on the same airplane with the same procedures. As far as airlines go, they care about checklist and flow procedures. Yes you do get that at pt141 schools but there is no reason why you can't imitate that at pt61 schools as most pt61 school that are focused towards pro training do. But again there are only so many procedures you can practice on a 172. It's not exactly as complex as an airliner.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Training and real life are two different things. For crying out loud, I did ALL my training from private pilot glider to ATP part 61 at a local airport on the weekends. I have taught at both 141 pilot schools and part 61. Training part 61 I've always used the same syllabus they use at most 141 schools anyway. However, I have seen far more pencil whipping for 141 students than I have for 61 students.

It is not the school, it is the instructor and the attitude of the student. Period.

This argument will never and can never end with an inclusive and definitive answer. We are all wasting our time.

Edit* I hit reply to the wrong post but thats not really important. Just saying this to spare myself the comments otherwise.

Oh, and sometimes those 141 schools targeting professional students still elect to place that student in the part 61 program at their school. It is a different mold for different people.

Understood, but it still doesn't change the fact that if you're a company looking at two candidates, one from pt 61, and one from a flight school that offers 141, all things being equal you will choose the one from 141. The data supports that decision.

Look, I was part 61 too. It doesn't mean that YOU were a bad pilot. It just means that on the whole those from 141 do better in training. There will be stand-outs from 61, and slackers from 141.

 

[CX880]

Understood, but it still doesn't change the fact that if you're a company looking at two candidates, one from pt 61, and one from a flight school that offers 141, all things being equal you will choose the one from 141. The data supports that decision.

Look, I was part 61 too. It doesn't mean that YOU were a bad pilot. It just means that on the whole those from 141 do better in training. There will be stand-outs from 61, and slackers from 141.

I've interviewed at many places and they never asked where I got training. How would they even know?? They don't ask where you trained on an application.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

I've interviewed at many places and they never asked where I got training. How would they even know?? They don't ask where you trained on an application.

ASA does, and your logbooks should match where you said you did your training.

 

[hey]

I thought preparation H was supposed to be better on the whole...