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New FAR

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flyinglow

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2004
Posts
87
Long time Lurker. First time poster

I propose a new FAR:

Both flight crew members (CA & FO) operating a Part 121 with over 30 seats shall possess an Airline Transport Pilot Rating (& type rating, possibly).

I think this could really help drive wages up and stop "the race to the bottom". It would shrink the pool of qualified applicants, supply and demand. I realize some won't agree, and I know you can successfully do the job with less qualification, but I think in the end this would be best for all. Another side benefit would be the demise of several PFT outfits.

Opinions?
 
I've thought that way for a long time.

The benefits would outweigh the disadvantages.

And:

There ain't no way that PFTers can buy their way to 1500TT!!

Hahahahaha!
 
Here Here! Or is it, Hear Hear! I think Part 135 as well. It would be nice to see something to allow people with less than 1500TT be able to fly a PISTON twin 135 easier and get some good experience. Maybe lower the 135 min from 1200 to 1000 hours allowing for more time(a year) in this environment.
 
Airline management doesn't pay based on qualifications. We're blue-collar workers, getting paid what our Collective Bargaining Agreement states. Most pilots have four-year college degrees and some have Masters degrees, and many have more advanced aeronautical certifications, but we're all paid the same regardless.
Airines will never again pay someone $180,000/year to fly when someone else will happily do it for $40,000/year.

By the way- welcome to the board!
 
Your proposed rule is interesting but you must consider the likelihood of it being implemented….which is zero.

The current FAA administer and “new” Sec. of Transportation for Bush’s second term would never endorse such a proposition. Why?




  • The proposal regarding the ATP may result in a more restrictive pool of applicants to the regionals, this (in theory) may result in an increase in wages (albeit temporary). Based on the present Administrations’ policy regarding “illegal immigrants/ work visas competing for low wage jobs” , I believe this requirement would be at odds with this policy of restricting applicant pools & raising wages....THAT'S JUST BAD FOR BUSINESS!!)


  • The Type rating would increase costs for the airlines. Which would thus increase costs for the flying public (which as we all know is more important than anything). Moreover the lobby effort by the airlines, and consumer groups would be overwhelming. It would never happen -safety be **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed.
What’s more interesting is the effort by the E. U. requiring that both pilots be typed in the aircraft. They have actually have grounded a bunch of (mostly corporate) aircraft over there….by default -operators (especially international) are going to have to adjust.
 
Never say never, anything is possible. We could use our good friends the media to help. All we need is for the media to scare the public. I am sure Dan Rather can come up with a good piece on 60 minutes, he can even blame the president if he wants.
 
flyinglow said:
all. Another side benefit would be the demise of several PFT outfits.

Opinions?
The only PFT outfit I know of in the 121 world is Gulfstream, and they use 19 seat B1900's...I'm sure there are others but I don't think they use larger aircraft?

Key Lime Air has a PFT scheme, but its 135 in smaller piston/turbine a/c. I agree this would allow a restrictive pool of applicants...as for increasing pay I wouldn't bet my nut on it.

As far as scaring the public goes though, is it really a good idea? Maybe if you timed it with the introduction of that law, it might be worthwhile in promoting the public into calling their officials and showing support. However, just going out and scaring the flying public probably won't be the best way to secure future jobs.

As a whole though, I do like the idea.

~wheelsup
 
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Lemme tell ya exactly what would happen, based on what the GOP has done to the Information Technology field: Orrin Hatch would propose that foreign pilots become eligible for H1B visas since the airlines couldn't/wouldn't be able to find sufficient numbers of qualified pilots willing to work for peanuts. That or Dubya would propose immigration amnesty for all the illegal aliens now flying for the 121 carriers. :)

Laugh all you want, it's exactly what happened to IT; during the dot-com boom, the industry ran out of qualified people willing to work for $15 an hour, so Congress let them bring in scores of barely-qualified foreign workers, who've now taken those jobs back home with them. Cabotage laws prevent foreign carriers from servicing U.S. routes, but I'm sure I'm not the first to think of foreign pilots being brought in to fly mainline jets for U.S. carriers for regional jet wages.
 
flyinglow said:
Long time Lurker. First time poster

I propose a new FAR:

Both flight crew members (CA & FO) operating a Part 121 with over 30 seats shall possess an Airline Transport Pilot Rating (& type rating, possibly).

I think this could really help drive wages up and stop "the race to the bottom".
Opinions?
Why would FAA or anyone else in Transportation Department buy into this? I think their mandate is regulation of the 121 (and other) carriers for the safety of the flying public. Are there any statistically valid studies that say such a proposal would noticeably increase safety? You'd have a hard time justifying to anyone (except airline pilots) the addition of a new FAR just to increase airline pilot wages.
 
gfvalvo said:
Are there any statistically valid studies that say such a proposal would noticeably increase safety?
Statistically valid - maybe not, but both guys (and gals) up front which are type rated in the airplane, nahh - no noticeable increase in safety at all... :)
 
Captain P-F-T

I agree, but,
100LL... Again! said:
There ain't no way that PFTers can buy their way to 1500TT!!
Oh,yeah?? Check out the latest Gulfstream "scheme":

- Gulfstream Fast Track Captain
• Interview Before Starting Training
• Secure Permanent Hire Seniority
• Acquire Airline Pass Rights
• Build Over 1,250 Flight Hours For As
Little As $39 Per Hour
• Receive ATP And Type Rating
• Obtain Captain Upgrade
• Assure Career Path To Left Seat

(emphasis added)

Everything's for sale anymore, even airline captaincy. <sigh>
 
Such regulation wouldn't make an iota of difference. It wouldn't shrink any pool, it wouldn't drive wages up or down, it wouldn't do anything.

A type rating is nothing more than a ride in the airplane that meets performance standards, and this can be given during initial or recurrent training. Weather becoming SIC for the first time, upgrading to PIC, doing recurrent, whatever, everybody goes through systems, through performance, through ground...little extra is required to obtain the ATP in the simulator following ground. It's done all the time today...I know an individual who just obtained his ATP yesterday doing that very thing.

So what's the difference? Foriegn carriers already require both pilots to be typed. If the training is already given (and it is), we're talking about executing one additional piece of paper to grant the ATP.

If, however, you're talking about the current practice of putting underqualified individuals in the right seat, people with less than 1,500 hours flighttime, I still don't see that setting that as a minimum standard would change a thing. Nothing. The majority of pilots, excepting the entry level regionals, who hire into a seat are above that experience level (leaving aside historical United, where male applicants have five thousand hours and females and ethnics have three hundred...).

As for piston vs. turbine, don't even get me started. I was sickened yesterday to hear an exchange between an aircraft and the controller. The controller cleared the aircraft to XXX altitude, and the pilot asked for higher. He sneered something in a very condescending tone about "that's where the props fly." There's nothing particular about operating a turbine engine that a student pilot can't handle; it's easier in every respect to operate than a piston engine...there's no valid reason based on a pilot's experience that a student pilot can't operate a turbine engine.

Regionals presently do hire at less than ATP qualifications. However, raising the minimum experience level a few hundred hours won't change a thing. Not a bit, nor will it dry up the pool of applicants. Folks will have to tow around a box for a few hundred more hours, or ride around the traffic pattern whopping students on the brainbox with a rolled up sectional for a while longer...but all companies already have more than enough applicants. There has never been a pilot shortage. Never. Nor will there ever be. Finding enough applicants won't be a problem, and raising the minimum hiring levels or standards won't make a bit of difference.

Nice thought, though.
 
bobbysamd said:
I agree, but, Oh,yeah?? Check out the latest Gulfstream "scheme":
It's upsetting to read the quotes from these wh*res about their wonderful new "career". "Wow- last year I was bagging groceries, but now I'm logging Part 121 B1900 time for less than 172 time", etc, etc.

I noticed that every customer's picture shows them wearing two stripes. Do the customers wear two stripes, and the real FOs wear three?

Outrageous. I wonder how many of the passengers know what's going on there?
 
AVBug,

I repectfully disagree with you. You may be correct that the immediate benefits would not be clear, but I believe that in the long run it will. It is much harder to PFT to 1500 hours. The regionals today are higher a whole lot of people with much less than 1500 hours, I don't even know if Mesa could crew there jets without there wonderful 250 hour pilots from MAPD. It would act as a filter, many people would not even get into the business if they knew they needed fifteen hundred hours.

Also, by its very wording, Airline Transport Pilot, shouldn't both pilots be one. I don't see anything in the words that says Airline "Captain" Transport Pilot.

Food for thought.
 
avbug said:
As for piston vs. turbine, don't even get me started. I was sickened yesterday to hear an exchange between an aircraft and the controller. The controller cleared the aircraft to XXX altitude, and the pilot asked for higher. He sneered something in a very condescending tone about "that's where the props fly." There's nothing particular about operating a turbine engine that a student pilot can't handle; it's easier in every respect to operate than a piston engine...there's no valid reason based on a pilot's experience that a student pilot can't operate a turbine engine.
It's not the effort of operating the powerplant, it's a number of things, primarily approach speeds, high-altitude environments, overall A/C complexity, and others, that in general make turbofan aircraft a bit tougher than a Lyc. 0-320 in a Cherokee. This probably doesn't apply to any number of turboprop A/C though. Maybe the guy wanted to save some fuel, but I agree, condescension is not good.
 
All I know is that I only have 11 years left and they have to find someone to replace me. Unless of course they change the mandatory retirement to 65 then it will just be 5 more years until I am gone.
 
Even if you did create the shortage you anticipate (which I don't think it would) higher wages would not be the result. In fact it is more likely to trigger lower wages. Management would calim the measure generated higher costs and therefore they need lower wages in order to be competitive. Whenever "lower costs" are required they come first from lower wages. Pilots, facing the threat of losing "growth" would rise to the occasion by rushing to grant concessions and agreeing to less pay. After all, how else would they be able to "upgrade" in the 1st year and get a "big bucks" job with a major? Don't forget Jet Blue is buying a hundred 190's - just think about all the opportunities to fly them for $54 an hour and become a "major airline captain".

Be careful what you ask for, you might get it.
 
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Why would they have to lower wages to remain competitive. If all airlines have to comply, then none has a competitive advantage. In instances like that they all have to raise ticket prices. Besides I don't think the training costs would be that significant.
 
This would not raise rates one bit as others have pointed out.

If anything, it would lower your total earning potential! Think about it, now each person has to fly checks, or instruct, or do traffic watch, or however they build time for much longer than before. Think about how little these jobs pay. Now, after you've done that for a few years and gotten your ATP mins or 2500 hours or whatever the "qualifications" are, you can finally get on with a regional and make $20/hr. Great!

Whereas now, a person can get hired with 300 hours (and if they find a way to do that in a non-PFT way, good for them) and be on second or third year pay by the time the other person would get to the airlines. Remember that your top earning potential is at the end of your career, not the beginning of it.

All this boils down to is another form of regulation. We all hate regulation. And I find it funny to think that airline pilots, who are staunchly Republican, would suggest more forms of regulation to "protect" their jobs.
 

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