New FAA flight time/rest rules?

[amcnd]

Anyone figure out how,... lets say a 10hr min rest would effect flight schedules? longer trips, less credit? would it cause the need for more pilots at your airline? Trying to figure out how the quality of life will be like......On one side, more lines to pick from is good. But if you have to work 1-3 extra days a month to make up for the lost credit, that would suck.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

As a reserve always on min days off and only paid guarantee, I'd say it'd be a great thing.

 

[N813CA]

At comair where there are 20 year captains and 10 year FO's on reserve with min days off I say it is a great thing as well.

 

[altimaklr]

For NW Airlinkers, our MEM base in particular only has 3 main banks, and a lot of short flights like MEM-JAN/XNA/HSV etc. Same for Mesaba. It is really hard to build pairings that do not include reduced rest, and have more than 4-6 hours credit per day. It is just impossible. That's why it is so important for the new Pinnacle TA to include min-pay-per day (4 hours at least) to protect from having 4-day trips with very long layovers and very low credit.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

For NW Airlinkers, our MEM base in particular only has 3 main banks, and a lot of short flights like MEM-JAN/XNA/HSV etc. Same for Mesaba. It is really hard to build pairings that do not include reduced rest, and have more than 4-6 hours credit per day. It is just impossible. That's why it is so important for the new Pinnacle TA to include min-pay-per day (4 hours at least) to protect from having 4-day trips with very long layovers and very low credit.

Just another sign that everything along the Mississippi river should just be sent out to sea, from New Orleans to Memphis to St Louis (East St Louis especially) to Minneapolis..... Send it off with most of the east coast... I mean really would anyone miss Philly or Newark too?

 

[Raoul Duke]

it will guarantee most people will be at min days off

 

[altimaklr]

it will guarantee most people will be at min days off

This is not necessarily correct. If you had a min-pay-day of 4 hours... assuming that at least half of the days you'd be working 6 hours, and the other days you'd be getting paid 4, most pilots would be crediting well over 100 hours per month. This would be unacceptable for most regionals. What is more likely to happen is more equality in line-building, you won't see half the seniority list getting 10 days off while the top guys get 20. Most guys will get 14-16.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

But if you have to work 1-3 extra days a month to make up for the lost credit, that would suck.

Regionals have enjoyed way too many years of pilots working maximum hours to make ends meet. It is time to drop the number of flight hours, get the payrates up and make sure there are rested pilots flying the plane. The solution to making more money is NOT to fly more hours but negotiate higher pay.

 

[CHQ Pilot]

I do believe this will force lines to have less days off as schedule planning will have to create more work days to meet line gurantees while complying with new regs. I have a feeling regional pilots will take it worse than others. The airlines will fall back on the argument that their hands are tied because it is a government law and if they could extend duty days they would. The pilots will be backed into a corner because it is either work more days with less duty or more duty for more days off. There will not be a monumental shift in a cost structure (both pilot pay and fee-per-departure) or else it may be the end of the regionals. The regionals have built their business on a well known cost structure; a major change will either make it unprofitable for the airline or the mainline feed. If it comes down to concessions in pay, the regionals will concede and life will go on, albeit with less days off and less overall pay. Pessimistic, but that is the way I see it.

 

[pilotyip]

Again the law of unintended consequences will rear its head, only time will tell what he real fall out will be.

 

[sinkrate]

There will not be a monumental shift in a cost structure (both pilot pay and fee-per-departure) or else it may be the end of the regionals.

My guess is it will contribute in a big way to changing what a 'regional' airline is. Regionals started life with AC of 19 seats and smaller. As the fleets of J31s and B1900s were parked they replaced them with larger turboprops like Saabs, Brasilias and Dash 8s. Eventually even those AC became uneconomic partly due to all the FAA rule changes - all AC must have TCAS, the average pax/bag weights have increased to the point you can't carry 34 pax, the GC envelopes have been curtailed, etc. For years the FAA has been increasing the 'cost structure' of regionals to the point the FAA has changed the business significantly. Look at the abandoned terminal in PIT that was built for turboprops. 50 seat RJs are already on the same road. Between increased fuel costs, pay increases from labor agreements and labor cost increases from the new rest rules 50 seat AC aren't looking very profitable. In a few years 'regionals' will have very close to the same cost structure as 'mainline' carriers and operate mostly 70 seat and larger AC. The only positive sign I see ahead is that as the fleets of 50 seat AC are parked hiring from retirements should start again at the 'majors'.

Most regionals use computer 'pairing genarators' for pairing construction. These programs have user defined entries for maximum duty day, min rest, duty rigs, trip rigs, etc that will come close to simulating the rumoured proposal. If you want to know the impact on your schedule of all this ask your management. If they are any good at all at their jobs they have already tested it and know the answer. And they more than likely do not want to share with you because in most cases you will not like the answer.

 

[Buzo]

Most regionals use computer 'pairing genarators' for pairing construction. These programs have user defined entries for maximum duty day, min rest, duty rigs, trip rigs, etc that will come close to simulating the rumoured proposal. If you want to know the impact on your schedule of all this ask your management. If they are any good at all at their jobs they have already tested it and know the answer. And they more than likely do not want to share with you because in most cases you will not like the answer.

Which is why it is funny that the original poster asked the question, since he is an ACP at one of the larger regionals.

 

[av8tor19]

CHQ pilot has it. Having seen the results, they are not good. When you specify a rest of ten hours, that is all good until you factor in the overnights and what you have to "stage" so you can cover the kickoff flights.
Ex. Say a city has 3 flights a day. 6 AM kickoff, 12 noon turn and a terminator at 10 PM. Since the terminator has less than 8 hours to the kickoff, you would have to have a crew swap on the 12 noon flight. That would leave a crew in the hotel from ~1 PM to 5 AM the next morning. If your schedule is full of these, it becomes very hard to make high time pairings.

Yes, CDO's solve this problem.

 

[Smarta$$]

As a reserve always on min days off and only paid guarantee, I'd say it'd be a great thing.

Agreed....

How will these changes affect Highspeeds, stand ups, illegals, CDO's or what ever your airline calls them? I hope it makes them impossible.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Agreed....

How will these changes affect Highspeeds, stand ups, illegals, CDO's or what ever your airline calls them? I hope it makes them impossible.

I hope not... personally I prefer them as long as it's not stacking 4 in a row. Doing 1 or 2 at a time is much better than sitting around on ready reserve or getting stuck on a lousy 5-6 day full of deadheads and "time available"

 

[av8tor19]

Interesting news: Alpa says that the 10 hour rest will only add 1/4 duty days to the line pilot.

Fact: 10 hours of rest will add 1 to 2 duty days to the line pilot.

 

[WayBack]

Regionals have enjoyed way too many years of pilots working maximum hours to make ends meet. It is time to drop the number of flight hours, get the payrates up and make sure there are rested pilots flying the plane. The solution to making more money is NOT to fly more hours but negotiate higher pay.

Wow, now you're really dreaming. First you dream that ALPA will come into SKW and save the day. Now you think that pay is going to go up and rest as a pilot?
Can I have some of what you're drinking?

 

[enuffalready]

Agreed....

How will these changes affect Highspeeds, stand ups, illegals, CDO's or what ever your airline calls them? I hope it makes them impossible.

shouldnt effect them at all... when you duty out at 730 or 830am, that means youre legal back at 530-630pm that same day..thats more than enough rest since most duty in at 745pm or later...

Might even get more of them since the required rest may require the CDO's to make sure that early bank is on time.

I love em, have done nothing else for years... would hate to see them go

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

From what I've read, the 10 hours min rest would be 10 hours at the hotel, so that will add 1+ hours to the total time the crew is not available. Also, if you are starting your Duty Day at 1800, your max Duty Day, and max Flight Time will be reduced, which means less time available to fly...I think an 1800 start would give you about a 10 hour max Duty Day.

cliff
NBO

 

[screamingpax]

I think you are spot on. I believe it will require more pilots. Same amount of flying but less pilots able to do it = more staffing needs. However, I do think we we see much less productive trips, ie: more four days with early duty ins and late duty outs only credited to 16 hours. IMO. Hope for the best.