New ALPA President

[trijetter]

He is a DC-8 Captain at Astar, Formally DHL Airways. Great guy, former MEC chair, and VP of flight ops. I would vote for him over worthless any day of the week.

 

[surplus1]

FDJ2,

Nice reply. The objectivity of your "tone" is appreciated.

An "oligarchy" is a government/organization governed by a small group of people. Given ALPA's organizational structure, where all officers are either elected by the membership or the memberships elected representatives, and can be recalled by the membership or their elected representatives, I hardly see how elected officials fall into that definition, particularly when all the Different MECs essentially govern themselves.

You are of course technically correct but your definition of oligarchy is, I think, narrowed for the sake of political convenience.

For example the United States is a Republic. The neoconservatives are an oligarchy. That oligarchy is currently in full control of the country and governs it in accordance with neoconservative policies. Democracy or no, they run the show. ALPA is no different.

An oligarchy is a small group of people who together govern or control a [nation] organization, often for their own purposes.

ALPA's organizational structure is intended to convey the concept of democracy. But, it also facilitates oligarchy and in the real world of the ALPA oligarchy rules supreme.

ALPA's use of a unicameral system and the "weighted" vote firmly places control of the organization into the hands of 5 (6 if you include FDX] of its 42 - 43 member airlines. The same 5 (6) airlines control the top 4 national offices, the Executive Council, the Executive Board and the Board of Directors. For practical purposes, all decisions at all governing levels of the national organization are totally controlled by those 5 or 6 carriers, including the unlimited right to amend the Constitution and Bylaws.

The remaining 36 carriers are disenfranchised and just "along for the ride". If that is not oligarchy then I don't know what is.

Gerrymandering is the manipulation of political boundries for political advantage. In a system like ALPA's where each LEC member carries one roll call vote for each member he represents, regardless of which airline he comes from, when voting for the President political boundries mean nothing. You'll have to come up with a better analogy.

Again you are technically correct, which reminds me of the cliche' "what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive".

While there are no "political boundaries" to manipulate, there are political interests to manipulate and that is routinely done at all times.

You may convince Americans that each Congressman and each Senator only has "one vote", but it doesn't take rocket science to know that's not how it really works.

Each powerful committe chairman (in Congress) can keep virtually anything from ever getting to the "floor". Likewise in the ALPA, powerful MEC Chairmen "control" the money and in turn can keep almost anything from ever getting to "the floor".

LEC officials, only meet (BOD) once every two years and the majority of them are not well informed when they get to a BOD meeting. In fact the overwhelming majority are attending their 1st BOD meeting. Their "Votes" are easily minipulated by the powerful MEC Chairmen and "national officers" and the "players" on the political scene.

All "Delegate Committees" at the Executive Board are almost invariably chaired by an MEC Chairman from the "Big Six", and contain at least one (or more) additional members from the "big six". The remaining members are usually inexperienced or have no representation at all on most delegate committees. They are seldom familiar with the "rules" and rubber stamp whatever the chairman wants in most cases.

At the BOD, the structure of delagate committees is little different. The small carriers don't have enough "depth" to place even one member on all delegate committees, let alone several (which all the big MEC's can and do).

In the real world, the samll carriers are "along for the ride". The semblance of democracy is stellar; the practice of democracy is virtually nil.

I think the analogy is more than appropriate with respect to how things really work.

The general membership rarely attends even Local Council meetings, even at the large carriers, and never attends national meetings. In most cases they have virtually no understanding of what goes on. Even if they did, they have no power to mandate the vote of their representatives.

I'm not suggesting a referendum on every issue or even on the majority of issues. I'm just pointing out that a few people run ALPA for their own interests. The rest of us are along for the ride.

Yes, I would modify that system; substantially.

What caused our careers to suffer such a set back? What would you have done differently?

You didn't direct those questions to me but I'll take a crack at them.

# 1 - Principally 3 things. A.- ALPA's loosely federated system, which permits member airline to bargain competitively against each other. B.- Outsourcing. C.- The decision to permit and to encourage the formation of alter ego airlines.

# 2 - Two things: A. - Recognize that deregulation changed the structure of the industry fundamentally and required a fundamental change in ALPA's system of collective bargaining. Pattern bargaining was rendered obsolote by deregulation. We needed to modify the loosely structured federation of member airlines and change it to a labor union, where we bargained together for a common goal, as opposed to bargaining separately for conflicting goals and interests.

B. (1)Acknowledge that the approval of outsourcing was a mistake and take action to correct it. The corrective action would have required the large airlines that were being outsourced to integrate the small airlines that were the source of the outsourcing. Not as easily said as done but very possible at the time. It would have required primarlily a change of attitude, from one focused on exclusionary Scope restrictions to one focused on inclusionary Scope. [It is probably too late for that now].

(2) The creation of alter egos should have been fought more rigorously than we fought Lorenzo's New York Air. Instead of fighting alter egos, ALPA acted to neuter its alter-ego policy and promote alter egos.

The chickens have now come home to roost. A series of bad policies adopted by the same "big 4" (now 6) that felt so secure as to be unconcerned, has resulted in their demise. While they continue to exist and still "rule" the Associations roost, athe Fox is entrenched in the hen house.

The bargaining power has been so diluted that we have just lost the quivalent of 20 years of more of bargaining effort.

Our pensions are gone, our benefits are virtually non-existant, our work rules have been lost and our compensation has been reduced by 50%, without even considering the effects of inflation, and the alter-egos are flourishing everywhere. Instead of trying to correct it what are we doing? Scrambling to out-low-bid each other for the work.

It will take nothing short of a miracle to recover from these losses. Yet we're still living, as a union, with pre deregulation policies and concepts.

Whose to blame? The oligarchy that has controlled the association for the last thirty years. Not the individual Presidents. The big powerful "legacy MEC's".

Every ALPA President walks a tightrope between these big MEC's. No president can ignore the wishes of the United MEC Chairman, or the Delta MEC Chairman, or the NWA MEC Chairman or the USA MEC Chairman, let alone any two of them that happen to hold hands. [You can now add the CAL MEC Chairman and the FDX MEC Chairman to the equation.]

We need alos to change the organizational structure of the union so that its President, while accountable, has real power to manage it and is not subject to the whims and threats of the mega MEC Chairmen du jour.

Do I expect any of that to happen? NO, candidly I do not. We will continue on this course impervious to the icebergs just as the Titanic did.

 

[FDJ2]

one of the main problems is that the rla is an outdated anti labor antoconstitutional law. alpa , and specialy worthless, should have fought as hard as possible with the other transit unions to get rid of that law.

Well then I hope you contribute to ALPA-PAC, so that ALPA can have a voice in D.C.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

ALPA may have a new president sooner than later, when Duane goes to jail for racketeering, collusion, fraud, duty of fair representation etc...

So why hasn't this happened yet? Whats the holdup and is there proof?

Tejas

 

[Tejas-Jet]

The RLA is sorely outdated and totally biased against labor. What has ALPA been doing to change this antiquated law? How much lobbying have they been doing about this issue?

Well, this change has to start somewhere. How did your LEC vote on it when the resolution was introduced? Assuming it passed at your LEC meeting....how did your MEC vote on it? If it passed there, then its going to the BOD....

Right ?

Tejas

 

[BigMotorToter]

So why hasn't this happened yet? Whats the holdup and is there proof?

Tejas

We have been going through all the legal hoops for the last 4 years to get this to trial. 2 steps forward 1 step back style. The good news is that the Apeals Court upheld our lawsuit last year and we have just recently overcome the last hurdle that will now enable us to enter into the discovery phase. Discovery is when both sides finally show their cards. I'm not sure of the exact structure of the legal system, but it is at this time either ALPA will try to settle, or the Judge will order a trial with a jury or without, we are hopeing for a jury trial.

Just the fact we got to this point is a testament to the passion of the TWA pilots to right a wrong. We have literaly spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, and the time and sacrifice spent for our pilot leaders in this endevour is beyond measure.

We have no less than 3 law firms working for us. ALPA is worried. Duane is worried. They already tried to settle with us once.

ALPA has been fighting us all the way kicking and screeming. One example of the delay tactics employed by them was when after being requested by the court to hand over boxes full of documents they were required by law to keep, they said they didn't know they needed to keep them and had already destroyed them. Is this an act of a guilty party, or just a document managment mistake?

Our evidence is strong and will shock every pilot in this country when it is revealed. Obviously I will not reveal our "cards" here on this forum, but we will all know the truth soon. Hopefully without further delay, the trial will start before the end of the year.

 

[pipejockey]

Please guys, boot Woerth at all costs. One of the easiest things we can do to bring about change is getting rid of the main man. Just say no!! Anybody but Woerth. Everyone justifies all the concessions that were thrust on everyone by saying they had no choice. Well we have a choice about a new president. We can make it happen.

 

[JP4user]

Well, this change has to start somewhere. How did your LEC vote on it when the resolution was introduced? Assuming it passed at your LEC meeting....how did your MEC vote on it? If it passed there, then its going to the BOD....

Right ?

Tejas

Wrong. This is a national problem not a local one. Leadership start from the top.

 

[FDJ2]

Wrong. This is a national problem not a local one. Leadership start from the top.

The national leaders are elected by the local leaders.

 

[JP4user]

The national leaders are elected by the local leaders.

I am not talking about the election process but their obligations. You are evading the issue and their responsibilities. Are you insinuating that the lec an dmembership has to lead national by the hand on the obvious issues?

 

[surplus1]

We have been going through all the legal hoops for the last 4 years to get this to trial. 2 steps forward 1 step back style. The good news is that the Apeals Court upheld our lawsuit last year and we have just recently overcome the last hurdle that will now enable us to enter into the discovery phase. Discovery is when both sides finally show their cards. I'm not sure of the exact structure of the legal system, but it is at this time either ALPA will try to settle, or the Judge will order a trial with a jury or without, we are hopeing for a jury trial.

Just the fact we got to this point is a testament to the passion of the TWA pilots to right a wrong. We have literaly spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, and the time and sacrifice spent for our pilot leaders in this endevour is beyond measure.

We have no less than 3 law firms working for us. ALPA is worried. Duane is worried. They already tried to settle with us once.

ALPA has been fighting us all the way kicking and screeming. One example of the delay tactics employed by them was when after being requested by the court to hand over boxes full of documents they were required by law to keep, they said they didn't know they needed to keep them and had already destroyed them. Is this an act of a guilty party, or just a document managment mistake?

Our evidence is strong and will shock every pilot in this country when it is revealed. Obviously I will not reveal our "cards" here on this forum, but we will all know the truth soon. Hopefully without further delay, the trial will start before the end of the year.

The problems you describe sound like a repeat faced by Comair pilots in their DFR litigation against ALPA. Doubtless it will be the same with the U pilots in theirs.

While the propaganda of righteousness streams from national headquarters, ALPA lawyers do everything in their power to delay or obstruct "discovery" and prevent the case from coming to trial.

Documents can't be found, records weren't kept, minutes of the EC mysteriously wern't recorded or have been lost. It's endless.

I wish you luck but be prepared for the long haul. It is going to take years more to get the first trial, and then there will be the appeals. ALPA will spend and spend to keep these cases from being settled, in hope that the litigants will run out of money to continue the fight. That's what all big outfits do when they're fighting the little people.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I am not talking about the election process but their obligations. You are evading the issue and their responsibilities. Are you insinuating that the lec an dmembership has to lead national by the hand on the obvious issues?

Wasn't this thread about getting rid of Duane Woerth? The ALPA BOD is this fall. This is where all the ALPA MEC's will vote on Duane's job and compensation.

So, if you want this to happen, better get the LEC resolutions going now. So your MEC will kniow where you stand when they vote at the BOD.

Of course, if they don't, you always have the recall process....

Tejas

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am not talking about the election process but their obligations. You are evading the issue and their responsibilities. Are you insinuating that the lec an dmembership has to lead national by the hand on the obvious issues?

JP4user...

You have alot of reading to do. There is a good chance that once you do, you will have plenty to bring to the table...

Until then your post indicate a lack of in depth knowledge on how it all works...

Respectfully and of course...Rezfully yours....

:beer:

 

[MECH]

Rule #1 in any lawsuit. The lawyers will always win!!!!

Remember we live in a country that is run by lawyers(congress is made up of 41% lawyers) for lawyers. All the local judges that rule on the class action cases are lawyers, and who do you think gives them the most money during an election. You guessed it lawyers. Why do you think some cases drag on for so long. You gotta get the billable hours!

RANT OVER..

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2,

Nice reply. The objectivity of your "tone" is appreciated.

Back at ya.


You are of course technically correct but your definition of oligarchy is, I think, narrowed for the sake of political convenience.

I believe that your definition is broadened for political reasons.

Oxford Dictionary: Oligarchy/ Government or nation governed by a small group.

Oxford Dictionary: Democracy/ Governed by the whole population, usually through elected representatives.

It's quite clear that ALPA is a democracy, but is it really an oligarchy? Well according to you, in one of your complaints about ALPA organization, ALPA is a loosely federated system. That is ofcourse true, given ALPA's organizational structure, but how can one then say that ALPA is an "oligarchy", when one also says it's a loosely federated system? You really can't.

For example the United States is a Republic. The neoconservatives are an oligarchy. That oligarchy is currently in full control of the country and governs it in accordance with neoconservative policies. Democracy or no, they run the show. ALPA is no different.

The "neoconservatives" are by definition a new form of conservative, having recently gained power, but they hardly govern alone and they are not few in number. But the fact that they are "new" means that they have "replaced" another political group, and they did that by motivating their base, persuading the middle and getting out the vote. When someone else comes along and does that, and they eventually will, the "neoconservatives" will be replaced.

ALPA's organizational structure is intended to convey the concept of democracy. But, it also facilitates oligarchy and in the real world of the ALPA oligarchy rules supreme.

No, in the real world of ALPA, democracy rules supreme. Look at recent history, the NWA MEC Chairman recalled and the DAL MEC Chairman lost reelection on the eve on a bankruptcy filing. In both cases Local leaders overthrew the incumbent administration. The power of the vote rules, not the elected Executive.

ALPA's use of a unicameral system and the "weighted" vote firmly places control of the organization into the hands of 5 (6 if you include FDX] of its 42 - 43 member airlines.

Just to be clear, what you claim is "weighted" is actually proportional representation. Simply put, one vote cast for each constituent represented. That sounds fair to me. Perhaps you prefer "super" representation status, where your LEC reps get to cast two votes for each constituent represented. No thanks.

The remaining 36 carriers are disenfranchised and just "along for the ride". If that is not oligarchy then I don't know what is.

Hardly, they have a vote, just like anyone else, no more and no less for each of their constituents. In a close election, one vote can and has made a difference.

Again you are technically correct, which reminds me of the cliche' "what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive".

I don't see the connection, I call you on your improper use of the political term "gerrymandering" and you agree I am correct in my interpretation, but then in the same breath you accuse me of intending to deceive for correcting your improper use of the word. You probably should have just stuck to the facts, that I am correct, that you mis spoke and you would like to clarify your position.

While there are no "political boundaries" to manipulate, there are political interests to manipulate and that is routinely done at all times.

Imagine that! Of course there are political interests, ALPA is a democratic organization and thus a political one. Politician is not a dirty word, it sure beats despot. Politics is the art of persuasion and nothing is more persuasive then being right.

You may convince Americans that each Congressman and each Senator only has "one vote", but it doesn't take rocket science to know that's not how it really works.

Ummm, yes that is exactly how it works.

Each powerful committe chairman (in Congress) can keep virtually anything from ever getting to the "floor".

And all those "powerful" committee chairman and even House Leaders can be canned. Here's some names for you to consider, Foley, Lott, Delay, Gingrinch, Towers.

LEC officials, only meet (BOD) once every two years and the majority of them are not well informed when they get to a BOD meeting.

Whose fault is that?

In fact the overwhelming majority are attending their 1st BOD meeting.
Their "Votes" are easily minipulated by the powerful MEC Chairmen and "national officers" and the "players" on the political scene.

Are you saying that the CMR LEC reps are so weak that they can easily be manipulated into voting against the interests of their constituents. Give me names, who has been so weak?


In the real world, the samll carriers are "along for the ride". The semblance of democracy is stellar; the practice of democracy is virtually nil.

Small carriers have just as many votes for each of their constituents as large carriers, and in fact have in the past cast pivitol votes, even when electing the ALPA President. It's just too bad you can't see the benefit of giving equal representation to each ALPA pilot, it sounds like you want to give "super" representation to pilots simply because they come from small carriers. Sorry, I can't go along with that.

I think the analogy is more than appropriate with respect to how things really work.

I disagree. One man, one vote. Each LEC member should only be allowed to cast one vote for each member he represents.

The general membership rarely attends even Local Council meetings, even at the large carriers, and never attends national meetings. In most cases they have virtually no understanding of what goes on. Even if they did, they have no power to mandate the vote of their representatives.

I don't like the general apathy of the membership, but I have noticed that the membership tends to be less apathetic when it's crunch time or they're upset with how things are run. LEC representatives tend to have short terms of office when they fail their membership. At the end of the day it still comes back to the power of the vote of each ALPA pilot.

There are lots of reason why we find ourselves in the position we are in, IMO your right on some, wrong on some and some you have completely missed. Here's a short list of contributing factors you might want to add.

1. 911 and the loss of revenue that followed.
2. Two ongoing wars in the middle east.
3. $70/barrel oil.
4. The hyper growth strategy of Non ALPA LCC with crew costs significantly lower than their ALPA carrier competitors, necesitating draconian concessions.
5. An anti labor Administration, Congress, Senate and ATSB.
6. Bankruptcy.
7. Bankruptcy laws
8. Pension Laws/Terminations/and the PBGC
9. Poor management.

Nothing I'm saying is a defense of Duane Woerth, I'm neither defending him or attacking him, but he is elected and I respect the election process. If he is reelected or if someone else were elected, I can live with that. There is an old saying in ALPA that the only thing that ends a debate is exhaustion. With that said I'll leave the last word to you.

 

[JP4user]

JP4user...

You have alot of reading to do. There is a good chance that once you do, you will have plenty to bring to the table...

Until then your post indicate a lack of in depth knowledge on how it all works...

Respectfully and of course...Rezfully yours....

:beer:

You are marginalizing my point with a flippant response and typical rationalization. My original reply to the message in question was in fact direct and correct. You also still did not answer my original question to you about the differences. Is that because it doesn't or can't fall under your usual "read about it and get back to us" theme?

The attitude that you display is a good analogy of the reasons of ALPA is rotting from within. Elitism from the elected reps which increases in intensity the closer you get to ALPA headquarters. This is also followed by the complete refusal to truly and honestly listen to the membership. This hear no evil approach is driven by political agendas and in some cases power mongering and greed.

Did you ever consider that you suffer from a real bad case of the hear no evil syndrome?

 

[JP4user]

Wasn't this thread about getting rid of Duane Woerth? The ALPA BOD is this fall. This is where all the ALPA MEC's will vote on Duane's job and compensation.

So, if you want this to happen, better get the LEC resolutions going now. So your MEC will kniow where you stand when they vote at the BOD.

Of course, if they don't, you always have the recall process....

Tejas

You made an additional comment above about the RLA. There were replies in kind. Now you don't want to discuss anything other than getting rid of Duane like thread drift is non existent on FI? Make up your mind.

I stand by the message about the process for change in the RLA needs to originate from a national level. I imagine that this is not going to get started because the national leadership is so afraid to become persona non grata with the Washingtion political powers, they won't dare stir the pot.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Sounds to me this guy actually has a set...he doesn't stand a chance. I'll vote for him though.

That's great...but you don't have a vote. Your elected rep has a vote however.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

dan branan works for astar, he is the person responsible for the contract they got using interest based bargaining . it was an example for all other pilot grouos that sadly has never been duplicated in alpa.

We actually tried IBB at XJT and it didn't work on many of issues so we went back to traditional bargaining. IBB only works in very specialized situations in my opinion.

duane worthless makes $500k a year. that is the only reson he runs for office. he does not want to go back to northwest to make $160k as a 75 driver.

A few clarifications and don't take this as support (or lack of) for DW. His total compensation and benefits and expenses runs arond $500k but that is not his salary. His salary is roughly $350k. And I don't fly for NWA but the last I had been told is that he is senior enough to be a widebody Captain. I could be wrong.

if duane is reelected expect alpa to continue being the joke of a union it is today. the weakest pillot union in hte world.

Give me an example, in your opinion, of a strong pilot union in today's economy?

 

[Green]

It seems to me that most of ALPA decisions tend to favor a few at the top at the expense of the majority of pilots that will never reach the top stage—heavy wide body Captain. To me ALPA membership is like some kind of pyramid scam. The seniority system is what it is, but when the decision makers are all the senior folks too I think that you tend to get short sighted deals that favor the most senior pilots at the expense of the group as a whole. Most of ALPA negotiating strategies pre and post Sep 2001 ensured that only a small percentage pilots benefit while the vast majority of pilots will never reach that level. Pre 911 deals were excessive to the point that the company could not be profitable under any load factor, regardless of world events. Post 911 the union leadership tended to drag their feet in contract renegotiations in total denial of world and economic changes. Senior pilots benefited by having three years of high salaries prior to retirement and walked away with a lump sum while the junior pilots had their pensions terminated. The only real winners I have seen are the national executives with very large salaries. It seem to me that the individual airline union members are thrown under the bus one at a time when it comes to contract negotiations in the name of not setting a precedent for ALPA as a whole. Sorry for ranting. Pinto

FYI the senior pilots' pensions were terminated as well. Ual pilots were unable to walk away with a lump sum so those guys took it in the shorts just like the junior pilots. They would probably argue that the junior guys sold them out knowing that they would have years to recoup their losses while the senior ones are left with losing 75% of their retirement at the age of 60. Kind of hard to bounce back from that one. Two sides to every argument.


Pre 9/11 contracts were NOT excessive. That attitude is flat out wrong. Pre 9/11 Dal and Ual 737 captains started at roughly $178/hr. Look at SWA now. A senior SWA captain makes $190/hr flying the same equipment. Sure they are more productive but that airline can't command the same ticket price either. They are managed much more effectively. The legacies had piss poor management and it showed. If your argument was correct then Ual would be blowing everyone out of the water by paying their 747-400 captains less than SWA pays their 737 captains. It comes down to revenue and management. Pilot labour costs are just part of the equation.

 

[JP4user]

A few clarifications and don't take this as support (or lack of) for DW. His total compensation and benefits and expenses runs arond $500k but that is not his salary. His salary is roughly $350k. And I don't fly for NWA but the last I had been told is that he is senior enough to be a widebody Captain. I could be wrong.

Bottom is the $500 figure is all that matters. But for the sake of argument let's go with that paltry $350k for just his salary.

How many NWA Captains even make 50% right now? How about 40%? Maybe 30 - 35%?

Something is very wrong with this picture. When ALPA is paying its clerical staff more than RJ Captains something is also wrong with that.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Bottom is the $500 figure is all that matters. But for the sake of argument let's go with that paltry $350k for just his salary.

How many NWA Captains even make 50% right now? How about 40%? Maybe 30 - 35%?

Something is very wrong with this picture. When ALPA is paying its clerical staff more than RJ Captains something is also wrong with that.

This is what I am talking about. What am I talking about? The fact that you don't know what you are talking about. And you try and call me out as an elitist because I suggest you don't know what you are talking about. If an elitist is someone who reads up on the issues, listens and understands then yeah, I guess I am.

Have I mentioned you don't know what you are talking about?

JP4user- as usual you offer no solutions. Only complaints. And your complaints are superficial and not based in principle.

The problem with ALPA is the membership. And what is the membership? Apathetic, cynical, ignorant, antipathic, misinformed and "street" educated via the cockpits and crewrooms.

When it is suggested to the membership that they read Flying the Line Vol. I and II the reply is "that's union propaganda"

Suggest the membership attend LEC meetings and they have other things to do.

When members say elected Officers are corrupt, they reply is particpate in elections. (right now about 30% of the members bothers to vote. But don't worry more people particpate in American Idol than gov't elections, so your apathy isn't unique).

When members say the RLA needs to be updated, they reply is how much do you give to ALPA-PAC? The dumbfounded look or ill informed reason not to spew.

When members cry about ALPA National salaries and the facts given, it only takes them days to forget.

ALPA members don't want to do anything but whine, complain, not accept responsibility, claim victim status and sit on thier ignorant asse$. In addition they do not want to accept the reality of the current environment. Which is...

1. 911 and the loss of revenue that followed.
2. Two ongoing wars in the middle east.
3. $70/barrel oil.
4. The hyper growth strategy of Non ALPA LCC with crew costs significantly lower than their ALPA carrier competitors, necesitating draconian concessions.
5. An anti labor Administration, Congress, Senate and ATSB.
6. Bankruptcy.
7. Bankruptcy laws
8. Pension Laws/Terminations/and the PBGC
9. Poor management.

With 1-9 above, the ignorant membership still want ALPA to create an imaginary bubble around them so they can live in bliss.


The problem with ALPA is the membership themsleves. They refuse to look in the mirror. Oh, the membership has solutions, but they are usually ill concieved and non pragmatic. Then when thier poor ideas are not implemented they cry that they have been ignored.

When promoting ideas and change one has to understand that it takes time! And the person suggesting the change has to do all the intial work. Sending an email to your elected reps doesn't count.

We can be much more effective, but we refuse to team players. We still fight amongts ourselves and insist on argueing about issues we are not informed about. And when ALPA members are challenged to get involved they come up with weak excuses not to do so. Truely pathetic.

With the BOD coming up it is time to put up or shut up. The problem is after it is over and (if) DW is re-eleceted and The president salary is not reduced, we are going to have to listen to ignorant whiney ALPA pilots cry about DW getting re-elected. So much for moving forward.

I really don't see the difference between poor inner city blacks and ALPA pilots: uneducated complainers who blame everyone else for thier predictiment except themselves. They are just dependents sucking on the tit crying that the milk isn't as sweet and plentiful as it used to be.

The whiney cry baby membership song starts out like this...

If only Duane Woerth would do a better job then my life would be better....

 

[JP4user]

You sure get testy about you salary Duane. I don't blame you. It is an embarassment.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

You made an additional comment above about the RLA. There were replies in kind. Now you don't want to discuss anything other than getting rid of Duane like thread drift is non existent on FI? Make up your mind.

I stand by the message about the process for change in the RLA needs to originate from a national level. I imagine that this is not going to get started because the national leadership is so afraid to become persona non grata with the Washingtion political powers, they won't dare stir the pot.

I can't remember making a commment for or against the RLA but I wil say that if you want it changed, the way ALPA works, is that it needs to start from the membership....Duane won't move on that unless he is directed to by the BOD.

The BOD gets it's direction from the different MEC's and in turn they bring all the passed resolutions from the LEC meetings.

Somebody already said it....phone calls or e-mails don't count....Introduce a resolution at your next LEC meeting....discuss it, then have the membership present at the meeting vote on it....one finds out real quick if he is leading a charge or way out in left field.

Time's running out. Let us know how it goes....

Tejas

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You sure get testy about you salary Duane. I don't blame you. It is an embarassment.

Again you have no clue. You are so misguided that when I call you out you think I am pro DW. Like a typical polarized political person. If I critize the left then I must be a right wing. Or vice versa, never occuring that I am issue orientated and moderate.



You can put down your beer and hotdog, wipe the mustard off your face and become a player or you can sit on your staduim cushion and complain it isn't going your way. Either way, the choice is yours.

....Introduce a resolution

huh..what?

 

[JP4user]

Again you have no clue. You are so misguided that when I call you out you think I am pro DW. Like a typical polarized political person. If I critize the left then I must be a right wing. Or vice versa, never occuring that I am issue orientated and moderate.

You're so smitten and delusional with what is taking place around you within the union, you just rationalize against differing points of view about your beloved ALPA and your Lord Woerth.

Whatever my friend. You can keep up the fascade about the membership and pilots being at fault when in reality, the stench from the rotting flesh in ALPA is eminating from headquarters.

Now that you have rambled on, you still haven't answered my original question to you about the differences you bitched about.

 

[FDJ2]

You can put down your beer and hotdog, wipe the mustard off your face and become a player or you can sit on your staduim cushion and complain it isn't going your way. Either way, the choice is yours.

Perfect, absoultely perfect. Unfortunately I expect JP4user to keep chowing down on that hotdog and jeering from the peanut gallery, never actually getting in the game, but full of plenty of uninformed analysis.

 

[JP4user]

Perfect, absoultely perfect. Unfortunately I expect JP4user to keep chowing down on that hotdog and jeering from the peanut gallery, never actually getting in the game, but full of plenty of uninformed analysis.

Must have the entire ALPA bod on FI now.

 

[PCL_128]

Must have the entire ALPA bod on FI now.

No, just a few informed pilots who actually took the time to study how things really work. Just a simple question: have you ever once been a member of a committee or run for an LEC Officer position? If the answer is no, then you've just proven Rez's point. The membership wants to complain as loudly as possible, but none of them want to step up to the plate to do some real work themselves.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You're so smitten and delusional with what is taking place around you within the union, you just rationalize against differing points of view about your beloved ALPA and your Lord Woerth.

Whatever my friend. You can keep up the fascade about the membership and pilots being at fault when in reality, the stench from the rotting flesh in ALPA is eminating from headquarters.

Now that you have rambled on, you still haven't answered my original question to you about the differences you bitched about.

JP4user-

I am not your problem. You are your problem. I am not delusional about what is going on. We are in a very tough time. As you know we just squeeked by with Foreign Control. (right?)

However, if we are going to fix the problems of ALPA the membership must get informed and educated. The ball is in your court. The choice in yours.

I challenge you to get informed and bring real soultions to the table.

I challenge you to think for yourself.

I challenge you to bring change.

I challenge you to use pragmatic thought.

I am all for a better ALPA President. Replace DW. There is always someone better. Bring it on.

We need better effectiveness.

But as long as you keep expecting ALPA to do things that are useless, we solve nothing.

How do you suggest we fix the leadership at ALPA national? What action items do you want to see?

Oh and I just read your post #29....

You don't think the power of the nations pilots walking off the job isn't a monopoly or a force to be reckoned with? I know all about the APA fine so don't bother going there. If ALPA had any true bortherhood not a wheel should of turned until that fine was rescinded in support of our brothers at APA. What are they going to do fire 30,000 - 40,000 pilots or put us all in jail?.

No it is not a force to be recken with. The anti union judges and power players in gov't won't tolerate it. And it is illegal. True botherhood? You don't even support your own union, how can we expect you to support another. I am begining to believe you know nothing. Read post #10. Even Brannan thinks an SOS is a possiblity, whereas if HE read Flyng the Line, he would know too. Have you read it?

The RLA is sorely outdated and totally biased against labor. What has ALPA been doing to change this antiquated law? How much lobbying have they been doing about this issue? Other than lip service what actions has ALPA done to stem the abuse from the bankruptcy courts?.

Are you really this ignorant? This is the USA. We live in a country that is pro business and pro dollar. If you want federal law that isn't biased against labor then move to France! Do you participate in ALPA-PAC? PAC is how ALPA does lobbying...but you know that..right?

The transit leaders showed guts and thumbed their noses at the courts to get a contract settled that was equitable. What did they end up with? A reasonable settlement for their members and a few days in jail. I know the country club ALPA elitists in Washington certainly don't have the spine for anything like that.

And neither do you. Still the loud mouth member cowering in the fox hole complaining that someone else won't climb out and fight the fight. You expect the ALPA leadership to go to jail. But you? Didn't think so.