Never say never

[Dumb Pilot]

Non rated 744 captain's position in China!!! and people said it wouldn't happen

http://www.parcaviation.aero/pages/...cing.asp?RMURL=VacDetail.asp?CommAdSeqNo=1632

 

[Flyer1015]

Dumb Pilot, I'm not sure how I feel about contract work for 3-5 years. I believe you work through a contract agency, on 5 year renewable contracts with ANA on the 767. But what if after 5 yrs they decide they just don't need you? If you think it can't happen, just look at Singapore Airlines and what they did to every single contract expat CA. They went bye bye when it came time up for renewal. At least with Emirates or Qatar, it's an open-ended / permanent contract, so the job is yours until you screw up or until you pis$ off the wrong person (which in both cases you're fired).

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Dumb Pilot, I'm not sure how I feel about contract work for 3-5 years. I believe you work through a contract agency, on 5 year renewable contracts with ANA on the 767. But what if after 5 yrs they decide they just don't need you? If you think it can't happen, just look at Singapore Airlines and what they did to every single contract expat CA. They went bye bye when it came time up for renewal. At least with Emirates or Qatar, it's an open-ended / permanent contract, so the job is yours until you screw up or until you pis$ off the wrong person (which in both cases you're fired).

So what is the difference? Any job outside the U.S. that you will undertake is based on their need for you, the classification of contract or direct so called "permanent" position is viewed from our perspective of what a permanent position represents here in the States where you have a court system that will view a case of dismissal of an employee somewhat impartially ( I say somewhat impartially because we all know that the $500/h lawyer the company can afford has the upper hand and it will take you 3 to 5 years to get it back ) But how do you think your case against a big and influential employer like Qatar or Emirates will be viewed at a court in the Kingdom? If they want to get rid of you they will, direct "permanent" employment of an expat is an illusion.

But things abroad are looking good for employment of pilots and I do believe there will be a continuous need for experienced crews around the world

 

[Cpt. Underpants]

Flyer1015

Well said.

I know who this recruitment is for.

Domiciled Shanghai with minimum time off, minimum benefits (read NONE), flying BCF's on the back of the clock.

The TC's are somewhere south of Jade cargo.

IMHO you would be better off (certainly healthier) in your CRJ in CLT, DFW or wherever.

Don't touch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcxsmhzXexA

 

[Flyer1015]

So what is the difference? Any job outside the U.S. that you will undertake is based on their need for you, the classification of contract or direct so called "permanent" position is viewed from our perspective of what a permanent position represents here in the States where you have a court system that will view a case of dismissal of an employee somewhat impartially ( I say somewhat impartially because we all know that the $500/h lawyer the company can afford has the upper hand and it will take you 3 to 5 years to get it back ) But how do you think your case against a big and influential employer like Qatar or Emirates will be viewed at a court in the Kingdom? If they want to get rid of you they will, direct "permanent" employment of an expat is an illusion.

But things abroad are looking good for employment of pilots and I do believe there will be a continuous need for experienced crews around the world

Dumb Pilot, you still miss my point. [No pun intended ]

With a renewable contract at places like Saudi, Royal Jordanian, Singapore, you can be let go the second your contract is over. Because it was not renewed. At PARC or Hawaii Aviation, it is a duration contract, and only that. It's temp work. Sure you could work more if they renew, but who knows.

At Emirates or Qatar, no one will come to you after 3 years and say, 'hey, you need to renew to work here, good luck.' You work over there specifically for them, and not a "temp" agency. Because that's what Hawaii Aviation and PARC are. Just temp agencies putting you to work for a term-limit contract. For some, the contract could renew every 3 years for the rest of their lives. But for others, your first 3 yr contract with ANA could also be your last because they do not want to renew you. This does not happen at Emirates or Qatar. Your job is 'permanent/open ended' which is like how we are used to jobs in the USA. Unless you screw up bad or pis$ the wrong person off, you have your job until age 65. I don't have to worry about renewing at my airline. The ONLY US airline I can possibly think of that may have this problem is JetBlue. They make their pilots sign individual 5 year contracts. Yeah, yeah, it's usually renewed, no problems. But they have no union. And tomorrow, management can say, screw these 6-10 year CAs, we want cheaper labor. Come time up for renewal, bye bye. And with no union, you have no due process to get your job back.

I wouldn't touch this job with a 10 foot pole. But if you are a furloughed pilot with no job in sight, and don't mind moving to the domicile listed, then have at it. May be fun for a few years while one waits to ride out the bad economy here. If I go overseas, it will only be to go to place that offes open ended contracts, not temporary renewable contracts. So I would go to Emirates and not Singapore.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Hello again Flyer;

No I didn't miss your point, you missed mine! (I'll explain in my closing arguments) I want to begin by saying that the information that you presented is 100% accurate and that all of us that are doing contract work are well aware of how it works because all of us did the same research and had the same questions that you have; The job at AJX is not the only job abroad I researched and it was not the only job offer I had on the table and some of the interviews after several discussions with good friends that are currently working in the Middle East, China, India, I just went ahead and canceled. My decision to come here was based not only on time span of the contract but for what I gathered on quality of life, the satisfaction of the pilot group with the employment (judged by attrition levels), salary levels, where in the world the base was located, the ability to commute, the respect the company had with the conditions agreed upon, payment on time and accurate, the safety and maintenance record of the company, not having to pay for training (this is a big issue for me, I am dead against it). How fatiguing the rosters were, time for upgrade or DEC positions.

At the end what sold me with this gig was:

Japan: It is a clean and safe country where the social services, hospitals, public transportation, rule of law, entertainment and night life, civil liberties are that of any first world nation; You can't make that statement of any Middle East base including Dubai, for as many malls, McDonald's and Starbucks as it may have.

ANA: I don't really think it is a mystery to anyone that it is a great organization with a great maintenance and safety record

Salary levels: nuf said

Commute: Along with KAL they are the best commuting jobs available right now in the world

Employee moral and satisfaction: The attrition levels here are thus far negligible, as a matter of fact we have had several captains that have completed their contracts here, went to do another contract somewhere else by their own wish not because the company didn't want to renew (went to fly 777's 74's at other places, that sort of thing) and after those contracts were up, came back to AJX. There is a captain currently in training that was here in the late 90's and early 2000's and did a 777 captain gigs and is back here because at the end of the day it is not what airplane you fly but how good you feel and how well you are treated and compensated.

We are indeed going through a rough patch right now with the merger of the cargo and passenger operations and we are curious to see what the rosters are going to look like after all is said and done and what the effect on the quality of the rosters will be remains to be seen, If they go down hill I promise to come here and whine with the best of them. Stay tuned

Respect of the agreed contract and on time & accuracy of payment: No issues! Can you make that statement of the jobs you mentioned?, no you can't.

A DEC position was offered.

Company culture: I have to say that working in Japan is an interesting and very different experience and the Japanese have their way of doing things, that is for sure; The training length is ridiculously long and the medicals are NASA like. But once you are on the line I have one word to describe this gig, Easy!

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to tell you to come here, I'm NOT by any means selling the contract world. I just find it funny that you are explaining it to me like I don't know what I signed and that after three decades in this crappy business I need you to explain to me the difference between a contract trough an agency and a direct employment with an airline. Thank you for your efforts but I am sure that I am more aware of what it means than you.

Now to my closing arguments: I'm not going to talk about any company in particular nor I want to engage in arguments with anybody about how good or bad it is in their jobs. Flyer you need to do more research, there are some companies out there that have a very, very strange company culture, there are companies in the ME, China, India that have very high pilot attrition levels and lots of issues with constant irregularities in pay and problems with contract violations, problems with intrusions in your personal live, some companies out there that pilots have resorted to send their families out of the country with excuses of family emergencies (yes, they have had to make a lot of explanations as to why the entire family is traveling) and then they have gone out on a trip and make a midnight run out of the hotel in the middle of the night never to return, as if they were escaping out of The People's Republic through the DMZ. Those guys evidently didn't have a warm fussy feeling that they had a so called "permanent employment"

Good luck with your search, there are a lot of companies that are hiring directly so you shouldn't have a problem finding your preference. I wish it is all you envisioned.

 

[Bad-Andy]

Well said, Dumb Pilot. And thanks for the link for those of us that missed it... And they said hell would freeze over before China hired non-typed DECs....

 

[Flyer1015]

Hello again Flyer;

No I didn't miss your point, you missed mine! (I'll explain in my closing arguments) I want to begin by saying that the information that you presented is 100% accurate and that all of us that are doing contract work are well aware of how it works because all of us did the same research and had the same questions that you have; The job at AJX is not the only job abroad I researched and it was not the only job offer I had on the table and some of the interviews after several discussions with good friends that are currently working in the Middle East, China, India, I just went ahead and canceled. My decision to come here was based not only on time span of the contract but for what I gathered on quality of life, the satisfaction of the pilot group with the employment (judged by attrition levels), salary levels, where in the world the base was located, the ability to commute, the respect the company had with the conditions agreed upon, payment on time and accurate, the safety and maintenance record of the company, not having to pay for training (this is a big issue for me, I am dead against it). How fatiguing the rosters were, time for upgrade or DEC positions.

At the end what sold me with this gig was:

Japan: It is a clean and safe country where the social services, hospitals, public transportation, rule of law, entertainment and night life, civil liberties are that of any first world nation; You can't make that statement of any Middle East base including Dubai, for as many malls, McDonald's and Starbucks as it may have.

ANA: I don't really think it is a mystery to anyone that it is a great organization with a great maintenance and safety record

Salary levels: nuf said

Commute: Along with KAL they are the best commuting jobs available right now in the world

Employee moral and satisfaction: The attrition levels here are thus far negligible, as a matter of fact we have had several captains that have completed their contracts here, went to do another contract somewhere else by their own wish not because the company didn't want to renew (went to fly 777's 74's at other places, that sort of thing) and after those contracts were up, came back to AJX. There is a captain currently in training that was here in the late 90's and early 2000's and did a 777 captain gigs and is back here because at the end of the day it is not what airplane you fly but how good you feel and how well you are treated and compensated.

We are indeed going through a rough patch right now with the merger of the cargo and passenger operations and we are curious to see what the rosters are going to look like after all is said and done and what the effect on the quality of the rosters will be remains to be seen, If they go down hill I promise to come here and whine with the best of them. Stay tuned

Respect of the agreed contract and on time & accuracy of payment: No issues! Can you make that statement of the jobs you mentioned?, no you can't.

A DEC position was offered.

Company culture: I have to say that working in Japan is an interesting and very different experience and the Japanese have their way of doing things, that is for sure; The training length is ridiculously long and the medicals are NASA like. But once you are on the line I have one word to describe this gig, Easy!

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to tell you to come here, I'm NOT by any means selling the contract world. I just find it funny that you are explaining it to me like I don't know what I signed and that after three decades in this crappy business I need you to explain to me the difference between a contract trough an agency and a direct employment with an airline. Thank you for your efforts but I am sure that I am more aware of what it means than you.

Now to my closing arguments: I'm not going to talk about any company in particular nor I want to engage in arguments with anybody about how good or bad it is in their jobs. Flyer you need to do more research, there are some companies out there that have a very, very strange company culture, there are companies in the ME, China, India that have very high pilot attrition levels and lots of issues with constant irregularities in pay and problems with contract violations, problems with intrusions in your personal live, some companies out there that pilots have resorted to send their families out of the country with excuses of family emergencies (yes, they have had to make a lot of explanations as to why the entire family is traveling) and then they have gone out on a trip and make a midnight run out of the hotel in the middle of the night never to return, as if they were escaping out of The People's Republic through the DMZ. Those guys evidently didn't have a warm fussy feeling that they had a so called "permanent employment"

Good luck with your search, there are a lot of companies that are hiring directly so you shouldn't have a problem finding your preference. I wish it is all you envisioned.

Talking about 2 different things now. Nowhere did I ever mention anything about QOL and stability of the country. Those definitely matter, and if it's some shady places (like the ones you mentioned), then it doesn't matter if it's permanent or a temp job. You'll probably be escaping in 6 months if it's that bad. You chose Japan, that's fine, and you have your reasons. They are good and valid. My point was nothing more than just pointing out that a temp job does not have to renewed, and you could be jobless after 3 years. This, as opposed to permanent offers in which you don't have to worry about renewals. None of this considers anything about the country, QOL, and other T&Cs. A pilot hired at Emirates could be there 5 years from now. A pilot hired at your airline through your agency could be there 3 years, and then never renewed. That's all the point was. It is up to the individual pilot to decide what he/she is looking for. Personally, contract work is not an option. I don't want a Saudi Airline type deal in which, a few years ago, you could join as FO on their Classic fleet for a 2 year contract that could be 'renewed.' The second they have enough Saudi nationals who can become FOs, is the second you will not be renewed. I've heard plenty of pilots at Saudi and Singapore who were fat, dumb, happy all the way until the day they found out their contract would not be renewed, and they'd be jobless when it was over.

Nowhere do I mention anything about the country itself or QOL.

Next,

My decision to come here was based not only on time span of the contract but for what I gathered on quality of life, the satisfaction of the pilot group with the employment (judged by attrition levels), salary levels, where in the world the base was located, the ability to commute, the respect the company had with the conditions agreed upon, payment on time and accurate, the safety and maintenance record of the company, not having to pay for training (this is a big issue for me, I am dead against it). How fatiguing the rosters were, time for upgrade or DEC positions.

Had you asked those questions regarding Emirates a few years ago (right about when you left your regional), people would have had good things to say as far as upgrades go, as far as payment, sticking with agreed T&Cs, etc. But now, today in 2010, the fast track upgrade program is gone. No more upgrading after just 2 to 3 years. The T&Cs changed for things like moving the premium pay trigger from 70 something (i think 78 hrs) to 93 hours a month, effectively killing overtime pay. And leave has been an issue too, with some not getting 42 as per contractual terms. And of course, unions are illegal in the UAE.

I conclude with my point that you are correct that one needs to look at the country, the airline, the city/base, the schedules, etc. etc. etc. But also consider whether or not it's contract work or permanent offer. For THIS particular job, in China, nonrated 747 CAs? Why? Why are they so desperate. That right there is enough for me to not touch this with a 10 foot pole. I will not ever entertain any job which is a contract job based on "renewable based on company's operational necessities." Seen too many good pilots at Saudi and Singapore get the bye bye when their 3-5 year contract ended.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Had you asked those questions regarding Emirates a few years ago (right about when you left your regional),people would have had good things to say as far as upgrades go, as far as payment, sticking with agreed T&Cs, etc.

I did come here from a regional as you pointed out but that is because there is where I found refuge after 911 and for the second time in my career I lost my slot at a major here in the U.S. (the first one was during the downturn in the 90's) and this is not the first time I work abroad either. When I came here, I most certainly researched EK since I have several friends that worked there (and are gone now) and decided that it wasn't for me. Like I said before, you need to do some more research because your "wet dream" of permanent employment at a place like EK is just that, a wet dream.

The purpose of my post about this job was not meant as a recommendation of this particular job, it was just to illustrate that the market is opening up world wide, that is it. As a matter of fact, another job opening for non rated captains was published for Singapore Cargo and they went back to offering housing allowance and school allowance (but I think the money is low) there will be many more opportunities in the international market in the next few years.

Good luck to all

 

[Flyer1015]

Yes, good luck to all!