Never Give A Kid A Jet!

[TonyC]

..... Dude, where's my airspeed? "

I think we have a title for the movie.












.

 

[flyer172r]

I am going to through something else to think about.

In training, it seems that the purpose is to make sure all the check marks are checked. It seems to be the same thing each time you go back to training.

I summit that maybe, (in the sim) this is the place to mess around. I have many times finished my training by so called checking all the boxes, and then was given the chance to do things with the airplane that I would not normally do in the real world. It is amazing the things I have learned about the airplane from doing this, especially things that I should never do in the airplane for real.

Grant it, I am flying 91 corporate, so I have less boxes to check, but maybe that is a good thing because I seem to learn something new each time I go back to trainning. I am able to expand on my learning by finishing the required training and them moving on to doing more advance things with the airplane.

The only problem with your suggestion (and I don't know if this is a real problem or not) would be how accurate the sim is in these kinds of conditions. If nobody operates these planes at 410, how well can the sim reproduce what actually happens at those altitudes?

It could easily end up being that since the airplane is certified for those altitudes, the sim would fly up there without too many problems, giving the crew a false sense of security.

 

[Scooby74]

Unfortunately, two of our aviation brothers died. Young or old they decided to have a little fun in an airplane neither one of them owned. I hear so many appauling story's of guys testing the limits of the aircraft while doing repo flights. Fly it like its a scheduled flight with your family in the back. Then on Saturday, grab a GA plane and have some fun. I am 31 and have 7,300 hrs. I try to learn something new every time I sit down in an airplane. When you stop doing that is when you become dangerous. Fly Safe.

 

[enigma]

The only problem with your suggestion (and I don't know if this is a real problem or not) would be how accurate the sim is in these kinds of conditions. If nobody operates these planes at 410, how well can the sim reproduce what actually happens at those altitudes?

It could easily end up being that since the airplane is certified for those altitudes, the sim would fly up there without too many problems, giving the crew a false sense of security.

Simulators are nothing more than computer controlled devices. As such, they can be programmed to reproduce whatever flight situation the programmer desires to reproduce. What is needed is some sense of urgency within training departments to actually use the sim for something other than a cockpit procedures and instrument trainer. Every six months, I get stuck in a box for four hours and don't do much more in it than I can do with MSflitesim.

 

[acaTerry]

Speaking of Littlerock, didn't a senior captain crash his aircraft into there? How old was he? What was his position?

Exactly. Go screw yourself.

I disagree. There were exterior factors: fatigue, duty day limits approaching, and weather...bad weather that were involved in that crash. The PCL crew was at near ideal conditions. I REALLY hate to say it, but they walked themselves into it.
The military has young pilots, as some have argued...but the selection process is MUCH more stringent than the regional airlines.
I don't think there is a magic age or flight time number. However, maturity IS a factor in this accident, albeit more of a mental nature than chronological. To deliberatley fly aplane 8000 feet higher than filed and not even consult the aircrafts ability to do so, and disconnect the AP when it tried to stop, and switch seats, etc. was an act of youthful thrill-riding. I don't see it any other way. Sorry, but the facts are clear.
I notice that the defenders of this accident are in the <2000 hour range...suprise! Instead of looking at this accident from the eyes of a fellow self-righteous youngster trying to justify their actions, look at it as something you can learn from and how this can be avoided...such as making it tougher to get someones hands on equipment that they are in no way ready to handle.

 

[ruhroa]

you know a chief pilot once told me "you don't know what you don't know". I took it as a insult , but you know what, as my experience and time in type progresses I hate saying it ....... He is right.....
you gotz to pay them dues....... either total time or time in type or good crew mix assignments.... It still disturbs me to no end that regionals (or whatever you call them) fly some of the most complex aircraft into the most limited airports yet pay their pilots so little that for the most part only the most inexperienced can afford to work for them.I feel this is nothing less than criminal and I hold these companies to blame almost as much as the pilot's who have paid this horrific price for their what? youthful exhuberance?
I don't know what the magic numbers are, I don't think there is a magic number actually, but I do think two Inexperienced,testosterone filled people let loose in a 30+ million dollar thrill ride
is a poor decision.......... when I was in the military they used to come down on us very hard when we reached the 500 to 800 hour mark ........... the problem was that we were young and had a little knowledge and thought we were invinceble (which is what they want) "we did not know what we did not know!!!!!!!!
another lesson and probably some doctrine changes written in blood are most likely the result of this............ RIP

 

[CRJDog]

Speaking of Littlerock, didn't a senior captain crash his aircraft into there? How old was he? What was his position?

Exactly. Go screw yourself.

Good point!

 

[Cardinal]

I notice that the defenders of this accident are in the <2000 hour range...suprise! Instead of looking at this accident from the eyes of a fellow self-righteous youngster trying to justify their actions, look at it as something you can learn from and how this can be avoided...such as making it tougher to get someones hands on equipment that they are in no way ready to handle.

Younger types don't deserve a rant. People who break airplanes do need to be hollered at. I've read "Fly The Wing," can define coffin corner, and understand the drag curve. The FLG crew apparently couldn't have claimed any of this. 3000 hours should be sufficient to captain a simple turbofan. It's one's attitude, skills, and knowledge that take them the rest of the way.

Nobody has suggested that these two be knighted. It has been put forward that a lack of professionalism is dangerous and can be seen across the age spectrum. At my airline 30 is considered old, 70% of the pilot group is in their 20s, and we have a bunch of sub-25 year old Captains. Most are excellent airmen. Yet the last 4 Captains to have bent metal have all been over 40. That doesn't necessarily prove anything, but it's interesting.

 

[Capn Lucky]

you know a chief pilot once told me "you don't know what you don't know". I took it as a insult , but you know what, as my experience and time in type progresses I hate saying it ....... He is right.....

Regretably, now we know. What many of us fail to realize is that almost everything we do is because someone else paid for the lessons learned. CRJ guys now should have a common understanding about the limitations of the aircraft. Yes, they were screwing around and if the flew by the book, this probably would not have happened. However, what if dispatch had requested 410 as a final? This still could have happened. There are other factors at play here. These guys gave their lives to teach many other pilots a lesson.

 

[acaTerry]

Your points are well taken, however I think you missed my point in that chronological age is not the matter as much it is the experience level and mental state of maturity. The fact is that the longer you fly, you the more you will learn, and coming from TBPs that never had the aerodynamic consequences should have made the crew more alert to the danger their inexperience posed. Couple that with a new FO who is still at the "I'm cool" stage of mental maturity and a CA who is insufficient in his technical knowledge and you have all the ingredients for "accident soup".

 

[Ron Mexico]

a few days ago I was watching the ABC news and they had a 1 minute blurb on the crash. It started something like "are Regional pilots too inexperienced" I kind of cringed at the potiental public outcry!!!! the media Is having a field day with this!!!!!

 

[flyer172r]

Simulators are nothing more than computer controlled devices. As such, they can be programmed to reproduce whatever flight situation the programmer desires to reproduce. What is needed is some sense of urgency within training departments to actually use the sim for something other than a cockpit procedures and instrument trainer. Every six months, I get stuck in a box for four hours and don't do much more in it than I can do with MSflitesim.

Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly. Obviously we want the sims to be as realistic as possible with respect to how the airplane actually flies. But it seems like few crews if any take the CRJ up to FL 410. So if we don't know how it really flies up there, can we make the simulator accurate enough?

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Now would be a good time for this

http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/00b9a680/463c5922

 

[Carl_Spackler]

.....

 

[acaTerry]

Thanks Carl, that was a needed laugh.

 

[enigma]

Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly. Obviously we want the sims to be as realistic as possible with respect to how the airplane actually flies. But it seems like few crews if any take the CRJ up to FL 410. So if we don't know how it really flies up there, can we make the simulator accurate enough?

We don't have any disagreement, so don't take anything personal. I'm just bouncing something off of you. And that would be this: You really shouldn't need to "see how it flies up there" if you had, 1. a solid foundation in swept-wing aerodynamics and 2. healthy respect for flying such wings according to the numbers.

I don't really blame these deceased dudes (no pun intended). I blame the FAA for not requiring more of ATP's and 121 jet Captains in the knowledge department and I blame airlines for hiring inexperienced pilots, and MOST OF ALL, I blame airlines for failing to train those pilots to operate the aircraft in ALL flight regimes. Like I said in the earlier post. Airlines seem to only want to use a simulator as an instrument procedures trainer. They get by with it, because the FAA overemphasises low and slow instrument approaches on a type ride or a PIC ride. Sim time costs money, and the airlines (at least in my experience) try to get by with the minimum dollars spent on training.

On another note. To those of you in the same age range as the deceased.........Please try to seperate your defense of age from a defense of the stupidity exhibited by certain age challenged persons.


regards,
enigma

 

[T-REX]

a few days ago I was watching the ABC news and they had a 1 minute blurb on the crash. It started something like "are Regional pilots too inexperienced" I kind of cringed at the potiental public outcry!!!! the media Is having a field day with this!!!!!

Right on...the only way i figure to squash the RJ is to build it up to be the next DC-10. Have some fun with this view, but who knows maybe it will help u get off welfare in the long run
500 hrs aand flying a DC9/737 equivelent.....u suck, u suck, u suck , ur cool, u suck.

Grow some freeking balls and learn some common sense before u play 121 pilot u airline pilot wanna be!

 

[T-REX]

I cant go to sleep, the clowns will eat me.

 

[kamikaize]

Two people are dead because they made poor judgement and pushed the limits of their a/c without knowing the consequences of their actions!!! To blame that on age is ridiculous!!!!! The gov trust's 25yr olds with the worlds fastest and most expensive a/c everyday and nobody knocks them when they crash or drop bombs on the wrong buildings. I fly for a on demand cargo company where the avg cpt age is 26 with around 3000tt. We fly out dated a/c everyday to some of the most challenging airports in north america and have never had one of our younger cpt's crash one or get a violation. I do feel that the majority of regional pilots are unexperienced when it comes to flying during an emergency situation. most have never been in a real world situation where they had to use their training and experience in order to save the passengers onboard. The a/c they fly are the most advanced in the world and they are trained to fly a certain profile for everyflight. It seems like anything out of that profile can result in serious judgement errors. Hopefully the airlines will adopt better procedures and training to help pilots of ALL AGES to handle these situations better. I hope everyone who has taken part in these threads can learn something out of their deaths. Dont push the limits of your a/c if you arent prepared to handle the results.

 

[rptrain]

Yet over 100 years after the first powered flight, there is no published standard for what airmanship entails.

Might I suggest Redefining Airmanship, by Tony Kern, USAF. I read it as a fledgling aviator, and it affected my entire career in a positive sense.