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Netjets taking Beechjets
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Live4flyng
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Ok,
I'll put it another way then. I never said that NJA would merge with Options, highly unlikely. I didn't know that NJA had to check with the Department of Justice or Shareholders whenever they bought airplanes either. Even if they did, it still would not make them a monopoly, there other fractionals out there.
If Raytheon made an announcement that they are going out of business as a result of bankrupcy, or just out of the fractional business all together, a couple things would have to happen for sure. The owners would have to be refunded their money, and the airplanes would have to be sold.
Back to my original post, if Beechjets are available for next to nothing and some sort of maintenance agreement were involved, it could be very attractive for NJA.
When it comes to unions, NJA isn't much different from an airline as far as hiring goes. You would have to become a member of that union once hired, one shop, one contract.
NJA Owner,
I have a quick question for you, if you don't mind answering it.
If NJA called you tomorrow and told you that the flight you booked in your Excell was going to be canceled because they were anticipating a work stoppage by the pilots, how would you handle that?
I'll put it another way then. I never said that NJA would merge with Options, highly unlikely. I didn't know that NJA had to check with the Department of Justice or Shareholders whenever they bought airplanes either. Even if they did, it still would not make them a monopoly, there other fractionals out there.
If Raytheon made an announcement that they are going out of business as a result of bankrupcy, or just out of the fractional business all together, a couple things would have to happen for sure. The owners would have to be refunded their money, and the airplanes would have to be sold.
Back to my original post, if Beechjets are available for next to nothing and some sort of maintenance agreement were involved, it could be very attractive for NJA.
When it comes to unions, NJA isn't much different from an airline as far as hiring goes. You would have to become a member of that union once hired, one shop, one contract.
NJA Owner,
I have a quick question for you, if you don't mind answering it.
If NJA called you tomorrow and told you that the flight you booked in your Excell was going to be canceled because they were anticipating a work stoppage by the pilots, how would you handle that?
Frac Daddy
Well-known member
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- Dec 11, 2001
- Posts
- 384
Frac Daddy -- hats off to you. You are correct; the whole ball game in a Clayton Act antitrust analysis is not what % of the market you will ultimately control but how the relevant "market" is defined. The frax market could be defined to include on demand charter, jet management, or just plain, traditional fractional ownership. However, the relevant percentage would still be staggering under any of those market definitions. Without realizing it (or may be he did), Live4flying has brought up the "going out of business" exception to not approving the merger. Plus NJA would not have to be a monopoly ... oligopolies may be covered s well.
Live4Flying --- based upon relative market percentages and control before and after a merger/acquisition, the Department of Justice can prevent a merger under the Clayton Antitrust Act and the Hart-Scott-Rodino Act. In additon, in large transactions, both the buyer and seller (or merger partners) need shareholder approval. In this case, I doubt the ultimate shareholders of B-H or Raytheon would need to approve this deal because it is not of a sufficient magnitude in light of the complete operations of either parent company.
Live4Flying -- I would not be a happy pup if my plane did not arrive. However, NJA could replace it with a charter flight. If things got bad, they may replace it with a charter (or EJM) flight but only charge me 1/2 of my hours (they have no obligation to do this, but if they did the inconvenience would not be as great as you expect). Legally speaking, under the Master Interchage Agreement, NJA does not have to give me any plane if there is a work stoppage. Not saying I'd like it, but I have very limited legal recourse against them.
Live4Flying --- based upon relative market percentages and control before and after a merger/acquisition, the Department of Justice can prevent a merger under the Clayton Antitrust Act and the Hart-Scott-Rodino Act. In additon, in large transactions, both the buyer and seller (or merger partners) need shareholder approval. In this case, I doubt the ultimate shareholders of B-H or Raytheon would need to approve this deal because it is not of a sufficient magnitude in light of the complete operations of either parent company.
Live4Flying -- I would not be a happy pup if my plane did not arrive. However, NJA could replace it with a charter flight. If things got bad, they may replace it with a charter (or EJM) flight but only charge me 1/2 of my hours (they have no obligation to do this, but if they did the inconvenience would not be as great as you expect). Legally speaking, under the Master Interchage Agreement, NJA does not have to give me any plane if there is a work stoppage. Not saying I'd like it, but I have very limited legal recourse against them.
Live4flyng
Well-known member
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- May 28, 2003
- Posts
- 313
Once Again,
NJAOWNER---In my opinion, a merger would never take place. It doesn't pass the common sense business test. Without realizing it, you figured out exactly what I meant. If FLOPS were going out of business, it would make sense for NJA to aquire some of their airplanes for next to nothing. The owners who used to fly with FLOPS may be looking for a new fractional with similar types of airplanes. There will more than likely be pilots with experience in those airplanes looking for a job too.
To Recap:
1. Company goes out of business and has a big sale.
2. NJA buys airplanes (core fleet) from above business very cheap.
3. Displaced owners look for new fractional, possibly NJA.
4. Displaced pilots find new job at different fractional, maybe NJA.
NO MERGER, nothing illegal, and if shareholder approval is needed, not very hard to get for the bargain. That is what B/H is all about, making $$$$$$.
Few more questions NJA Owner, and thanks in advance. How long would you be willing to fly around on a charter before throwing in the towel? EJM isn't very big, and the logistics involved in covering all the owner flights would be a nightmare. In fact, I would imagine that in a short period of time, OPS at NJA would be overloaded and start breaking down.
Under your Master Interchange Agreement, how long can NJA continue without supplying you an airplane? What exactly is your limited legal recourse? Would you make a serious phone call to someone in charge of your multimillion dollar investment?
NJAOWNER---In my opinion, a merger would never take place. It doesn't pass the common sense business test. Without realizing it, you figured out exactly what I meant. If FLOPS were going out of business, it would make sense for NJA to aquire some of their airplanes for next to nothing. The owners who used to fly with FLOPS may be looking for a new fractional with similar types of airplanes. There will more than likely be pilots with experience in those airplanes looking for a job too.
To Recap:
1. Company goes out of business and has a big sale.
2. NJA buys airplanes (core fleet) from above business very cheap.
3. Displaced owners look for new fractional, possibly NJA.
4. Displaced pilots find new job at different fractional, maybe NJA.
NO MERGER, nothing illegal, and if shareholder approval is needed, not very hard to get for the bargain. That is what B/H is all about, making $$$$$$.
Few more questions NJA Owner, and thanks in advance. How long would you be willing to fly around on a charter before throwing in the towel? EJM isn't very big, and the logistics involved in covering all the owner flights would be a nightmare. In fact, I would imagine that in a short period of time, OPS at NJA would be overloaded and start breaking down.
Under your Master Interchange Agreement, how long can NJA continue without supplying you an airplane? What exactly is your limited legal recourse? Would you make a serious phone call to someone in charge of your multimillion dollar investment?
Frac Daddy
Well-known member
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- Dec 11, 2001
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- 384
Live4flyng
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 28, 2003
- Posts
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Ok, I'll bite again.
Options/RTA is not a very good example, but I see your point. The man who made that deal is no longer around, and look how it eventually turned out. The man who invented fractional aviation is still aroung and very much in charge.
NJA is not in the business of selling used jets, therefore, it is highly unlikely a merger would ever take place. I guess I should have started this off with (anything is possible), but merger has such a narrow chance, I wouldn't put any money on it.
Why would NJA merge with a company that is losing money if they could hold out and buy airplanes for a fraction of what they are worth? If Raytheon decides it no longer wants to pursue the fractional side of it's business, who can they turn to and sell airplanes in bulk?
This is only my opinion,
If Raytheon/Options were to decide to end operations......
1. Owners may need to be refunded their money.
2. Airplanes will be for sale, possibly to NJA.
3. Displaced pilots need a job (possibly preferential hiring @NJA)
4. Owners need a new home, maybe NJA.
I'm sure there are many other things, but you see the major points.
Options/RTA is not a very good example, but I see your point. The man who made that deal is no longer around, and look how it eventually turned out. The man who invented fractional aviation is still aroung and very much in charge.
NJA is not in the business of selling used jets, therefore, it is highly unlikely a merger would ever take place. I guess I should have started this off with (anything is possible), but merger has such a narrow chance, I wouldn't put any money on it.
Why would NJA merge with a company that is losing money if they could hold out and buy airplanes for a fraction of what they are worth? If Raytheon decides it no longer wants to pursue the fractional side of it's business, who can they turn to and sell airplanes in bulk?
This is only my opinion,
If Raytheon/Options were to decide to end operations......
1. Owners may need to be refunded their money.
2. Airplanes will be for sale, possibly to NJA.
3. Displaced pilots need a job (possibly preferential hiring @NJA)
4. Owners need a new home, maybe NJA.
I'm sure there are many other things, but you see the major points.
Live4flyng
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 28, 2003
- Posts
- 313
I guess I should have said that NJA is not in the business of selling used jets to it's owners.
NJA sells it's used airplanes to the public when a fleet is being retired. I have seen a few older S-2s flying around with the original paint job and QS still on the tail. They won't flood the market with a whole fleet of airplanes, they sell them off one at a time.
Right now I believe they are in the process of selling the Citation 7s and Hawker 1000s. The Sovereign, CJ3, Hawker Horizon(maybe), and now the Beechjet are scheduled to be delivered within the next year and a half.
I think NJA cares more about how many hours are on an airframe than how many years a fleet has been in operation. As I stated before, if NJA is buying 50 brand new Beechjets, they will more than likely need a core fleet.
NJA has quite a few hawker 800XPs too. For the right price, a few more core aircraft couldn't hurt. I can smell a huge deal with Raytheon in the making for all this. Just my opinion though.
NJA sells it's used airplanes to the public when a fleet is being retired. I have seen a few older S-2s flying around with the original paint job and QS still on the tail. They won't flood the market with a whole fleet of airplanes, they sell them off one at a time.
Right now I believe they are in the process of selling the Citation 7s and Hawker 1000s. The Sovereign, CJ3, Hawker Horizon(maybe), and now the Beechjet are scheduled to be delivered within the next year and a half.
I think NJA cares more about how many hours are on an airframe than how many years a fleet has been in operation. As I stated before, if NJA is buying 50 brand new Beechjets, they will more than likely need a core fleet.
NJA has quite a few hawker 800XPs too. For the right price, a few more core aircraft couldn't hurt. I can smell a huge deal with Raytheon in the making for all this. Just my opinion though.
Pugnacious G
Active member
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2003
- Posts
- 36
NetJets has always rid itself of planes from time to time. We're probably currently selling Ultra's, VII's, X's, Hawker 1000's, Falcons and G-IV's out of our fleet. New deliveries are probably only slightly outpacing the retirements, thus no hiring. I heard that some of those Floptions X's used to be ours.
If I may - this will not happen due to aircraft age, no warranty against airframes / engines, maintenance & management agreements causes great losses and cannot support doc's of airframes. The market is too soft even to sustain minimal financial gain to offset costs with chartering aircraft to make some capital gain.
Selling airframes in the open market will do no good due to the low market value against flight ops airframes. The only thing they would do would be to purchase airframes already built that are setting unsold at Raytheon with full warranties that would support the pricing structure of the management / maintenance agreements making it profitable for the purchase.
So, Flight Ops will remain part of Raytheon and will probably be continue under as a charter management company. Heck TAG US would not even touch it due to the large amount of capital it would need to continue operation. The GIANT GORILLA will pass this banana tree bye.......not to mention the fed's 135 reg of showing capital gain to maintain the 135 ops cert and not doing it on the float...as flight ops has managed to do.....still a great bunch of people making good things happen every day...hats off to them and not to ricci....
Selling airframes in the open market will do no good due to the low market value against flight ops airframes. The only thing they would do would be to purchase airframes already built that are setting unsold at Raytheon with full warranties that would support the pricing structure of the management / maintenance agreements making it profitable for the purchase.
So, Flight Ops will remain part of Raytheon and will probably be continue under as a charter management company. Heck TAG US would not even touch it due to the large amount of capital it would need to continue operation. The GIANT GORILLA will pass this banana tree bye.......not to mention the fed's 135 reg of showing capital gain to maintain the 135 ops cert and not doing it on the float...as flight ops has managed to do.....still a great bunch of people making good things happen every day...hats off to them and not to ricci....
Pugnacious G, Live4flyng, flyboycpa
Just hopefully to assist... What I have been watching..the whole concept has been when airframes have mre hours than acceptable by the customers/owners they are offered to the public. thus the ultras, some 1000A's (back to the manifacture), VII's (a few more yrs) and the gone SII's. As we all know, these planes are good for another 20 yrs., however the perception is that NEW is GOOD and old (greater than 5 yrs is bad). Perception...
To get to the point NJA and Flex will replace a/c every few yrs with new models.....this is a great thing because it keeps things moving....however it could and will impact the market value of used business jet within the market place over the next two yrs. Based on their business model..all frax companies make most of their operating income on sales...yes sales. Margin is low with operations and most are luckey to break even, if not will show big losses over time...moving into the Fltops prblem.....
And for our NJA Owner..... Owners want to stay within the their frx company and at times they have to use outsid companies to supply lift and are "not pleased" to here that an alternate option is offered with 6000+ hrs....or even on fleet "core aircraft that have similar hrs", even though these planes are very safe and are maintained beyond 135 maint regs. Thus reason for the move for fleet updates...........
Just hopefully to assist... What I have been watching..the whole concept has been when airframes have mre hours than acceptable by the customers/owners they are offered to the public. thus the ultras, some 1000A's (back to the manifacture), VII's (a few more yrs) and the gone SII's. As we all know, these planes are good for another 20 yrs., however the perception is that NEW is GOOD and old (greater than 5 yrs is bad). Perception...
To get to the point NJA and Flex will replace a/c every few yrs with new models.....this is a great thing because it keeps things moving....however it could and will impact the market value of used business jet within the market place over the next two yrs. Based on their business model..all frax companies make most of their operating income on sales...yes sales. Margin is low with operations and most are luckey to break even, if not will show big losses over time...moving into the Fltops prblem.....
And for our NJA Owner..... Owners want to stay within the their frx company and at times they have to use outsid companies to supply lift and are "not pleased" to here that an alternate option is offered with 6000+ hrs....or even on fleet "core aircraft that have similar hrs", even though these planes are very safe and are maintained beyond 135 maint regs. Thus reason for the move for fleet updates...........
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