Netjets new 91K rules are demeaning...

[ghostrider64]

If you are seriously considering coming to Netjets you better think again...we are now working under what the company believes to be 91K and everything has changed...You are either in rest or at work...Period...

WHat this means is they are making guys show up at 0 dark 30 to sit around FBO's (many of which are closed so early) to sit around and wait for a briefing that may or may not come....BTW no perdiem during this 14 hour wait...

If you don't believe me go to any of our larger bases FBO's early in the morning from now on and you'll see the glamorous life for real...

Morale for the company just went to an all time low...However resolve and support for SU just went way up....

Come with open eyes boys and if any of you take the job and start bitching you'll never touch the controls of my plane....If you come and understand it then you can fly the whole **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed tour...But I don't want to hear one word about how things should or shouldn't be...We are trapped...you have a choice...

 

[FracDaddy]

You have the power

Sounds like management is showing you guys just what they think of you. Do yall realize just how much power you have in your shirt pocket.

Whip that ink dispenser out and cost the company 20 K for a charter. 50 to 75 % of you do it for a week, send the message about where the power really lies. I know Warren has lots of money and may just be looking for a tax rite off, so make sure he gets it. 150-200 mil in charter sell off just might get their attention.

Just a thought.

 

[650 driver]

BTW no perdiem during this 14 hour wait...


So their taking away your per deim pay? As if you can afford it.

 

[ghostrider64]

That's right...no per diem unless you are assigned duty away from the gateway....

We know we have power but they seem to be incapable of understanding how bad it's going to be...

If we start a duty day between 2300-0400 local time we have the option of refusing "flying duty" due to fatigue if total duty is to exceded 10 hours....add hypoglycemia to the mix due to no food and under the FARs we wont legally be capable of operating any flights....

The house of cards just started to do the slow breeze shuffle....


As an addition heard we had a net gain in January of pilots to the grand tune of 2....17 hired and 15 quit....

 

[CatYaaak]

If you are seriously considering coming to Netjets you better think again...we are now working under what the company believes to be 91K and everything has changed...You are either in rest or at work...Period...

QUOTE]

Sounds like sitting airport ready-reserve at the airlines. Well, if the salary is the same and you have limits to duty beginning when the company requires you to show up at the airport, who cares where or how you're earning it after that? I mean, work is work and getting up early for work doesn't stop sucking just because you go fly, and since the aviation business doesn't stop just because the sun goes down, somebody ends up working the lousy hours whether you're there, at a major airline, or a Fortune 10 company.

On the up side, an early show means you'll be able to make happy hour at the end of the day.

No per diem for that duty time sucks though, you'll have to change that. The need to change the salary goes without saying.

 

[CatYaaak]

If we start a duty day between 2300-0400 local time we have the option of refusing "flying duty" due to fatigue if total duty is to exceded 10 hours.QUOTE]

I've tried, but I can't figure out why you see this as a bad thing.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

That's right...no per diem unless you are assigned duty away from the gateway....

We know we have power but they seem to be incapable of understanding how bad it's going to be...

If we start a duty day between 2300-0400 local time we have the option of refusing "flying duty" due to fatigue if total duty is to exceded 10 hours....add hypoglycemia to the mix due to no food and under the FARs we wont legally be capable of operating any flights....

The house of cards just started to do the slow breeze shuffle....


As an addition heard we had a net gain in January of pilots to the grand tune of 2....17 hired and 15 quit....

All this talk about doom and gloom and unity, but other than turning down your contract, you guys just seem to talk alot. Everybody has said it, why don't you guys just flex your strength as a team. I guess it sounds good, but in reality you'll never do it. I think everyones afraid of being the one kid who drops the book on the floor at 11:05 (btw, that was ALWAYS me).

I really feel for you guys. I see you all the time at the FBOs I go to and I always make a point of walking up and saying "good luck, we're all rooting for you" and I always feel like I'm getting a free ride, cause you guys REALLY do work your tails off.

Fractional pilots are a huge part of our industry and I hope you guys can make your situation livable.

Ace

 

[650 driver]

I talked recently to a local GIV,GV operator the other day and their charter business is busy doing vender trips for Netjets.
They said something about Netjets aircraft having alot of light bulbs inopt and down for maintenance.

650

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

I talked recently to a local GIV,GV operator the other day and their charter business is busy doing vender trips for Netjets.
They said something about Netjets aircraft having alot of light bulbs inopt and down for maintenance.

650

Maybe the guys on this board trying to talk NetJet pilots into a work slowdown are actually charter operators...

Ace

 

[650 driver]

The only thing I have for charter is a 1999 GMC Jimmy.
I am just an out of work pilot that lost his part 91 job when the marketing guys with a large fractional company convinced my prior company they could save money and sell the company jet.

650

 

[ghostrider64]

Yaak,

In theory what you say is correct...However they have us showing up and sitting stby in locations that aren't even open for business....How many aviation careers do you know of that require you to sit in your car for hours on end???

Per diem only starts if they assign you something after your show time....Anyone who lives within 50miles of their gateway will not get per diem or a hotel if they aren't used during the 14 hour duty day...

2300-0400 start and limits are not a bad thing...They are good but it wont help the company's future bottom line...

Negotiations start again this week so I'm sure there will be some meaty subjects thrown about...

 

[CatYaaak]

Yaak,

In theory what you say is correct...However they have us showing up and sitting stby in locations that aren't even open for business....How many aviation careers do you know of that require you to sit in your car for hours on end???
QUOTE]

None, and you're right, that's ridiculous. You need to get together and inform the company that if you're on duty you expect to be in one of three places; A cockpit, a crew lounge, or your own living/hotel room waiting for your phone to ring. Your car doesn't qualify as any of those three. Let them know that you don't make your car payments just so they can benefit by using it as an airport camper.

 

[taloft]

Maybe you could all get together and spring for this. Better yet, put it in the contract.

 

[Mach92]

Yes NetJets has decided in the fasion we know and love to have everyone on duty 14 hours now. They wont release anyone to go home early. The contract violations are out the window, so many a day I cant count. NetJets according to some in management are short some 600 pilots because of 91K. They did not hire enough and now massive panic mode.

The heat is gettting turned up and the labor battle is getting ugly. The next 4 months will decide the future of NetJets. Our labor war is no different then anyone else that has fought hard for a fair contract. UAL AA NW Comair It does not matter were all pilots wanting a fair wage for what we do.

NetJets management must have watched the comair strike because this road takes a turn more that way every day. This by far is the most mis-managed company I have ever seen. 91K is just another sad example for NetJets on what not to do. Lets not roll the new rules out 6 months ahead to work out the bugs. Instead lets come out with memo after memo 10 days before Feb 17th.

 

[Galaxy]

FLOPS had us showing up early to sit stby at the FBO. I think it lasted 5 days. If I had to wait 6 hrs at the FBO to do a flight I would just have it in the warm hangar and show up in clothes I can get dirty. I then take my sweet time pre-flighting with pen and paper crawling around on the floor and plane. After a couple of hours of this and a stack of squawks. The trips were chartered or covered by another plane and I was back in the hotel by the original departure time with a clean ironed uniform. Silly ideas have silly solutions! At least they weren't sucking the per diem out of us. I am sure if they could find a way to account for it they would...135 over here shoul dbe fun! I cant believe they are FED-EXing trip charts for all trip for 5 days.. Were we not just crying about wasted money..I will keep these fedex charts next to the printed ones and file them with my new wx synopsis.

 

[Bandit60]

I thought all the Fracs were going to use 135 rules instead of 91k so they can do the marques program and stuff like that where people buy a block time. My understanding by reading the adds that this is operated under 135 regs. So are they really going to 91k or 135?

 

[Raskal]

Just like my company, they will be operating under both 91k and 135, it depends upon each individual trip.

I'm a bit confused though, 91k seems more restrictive with regard to the duty day than before, so what's with the change at NJA? The definition of duty now covers those hours on "call" rather than counting that time as rest as you could under 135, so is NJA pissed that you're now on duty no matter if there's a flight? Is this their punishment to you? WTF? As I understand it Buffet is one of the major backers of 91k, mostly for the changes in on the road maintenance rules.

 

[gunfyter]

You cannot count time on call as rest under Part 135. If you are on call you are not in rest

 

[Raskal]

That's not correct depending upon the "on call" definition. As an example, I have a soft callout Mon-Thurs until 6pm. Report time is 2-3hrs, but usually longer. This time is considered rest, and the FSDO along with our POI are in agreement. Rest time is not defined specifically in pt 135. In 91k (91.1057) the regs actually define reserve,rest,duty etc. As of the 17th, under 91k, my weekdays are duty.

I agree that in principal on call is duty, but such as the way of the world...if it's not defined.

 

[Publishers]

We just had a meeting with some big aircraft owners who are looking to have aircraft managed. One of the big things that they have with EJM and other are the crew charges and crew changes during trips to meet the required days off.

They do not want to be dealing with this. End of customer.

You may well end up with a great contract on an aircraft that does not exist.

 

[Raskal]

We just had a meeting with some big aircraft owners who are looking to have aircraft managed. One of the big things that they have with EJM and other are the crew charges and crew changes during trips to meet the required days off.

They do not want to be dealing with this. End of customer.

You may well end up with a great contract on an aircraft that does not exist.

That's an interesting point, although we have 10 aircraft in a small frax op we manage one wholly owned plane. It's advantageous to the owner to have his plane on our interchange agreement, but his flights (like everything we do) are run under our 135 cert. Wonder, if he didn't need the interchange if he wouldn't just take the plane away and run it pure 91.

I don't know how EJM or any of the others run their management ops though, I'm just assuming it's similar.

 

[gunfyter]

That's not correct depending upon the "on call" definition. As an example, I have a soft callout Mon-Thurs until 6pm. Report time is 2-3hrs, but usually longer. This time is considered rest, and the FSDO along with our POI are in agreement. Rest time is not defined specifically in pt 135. In 91k (91.1057) the regs actually define reserve,rest,duty etc. As of the 17th, under 91k, my weekdays are duty.

I agree that in principal on call is duty, but such as the way of the world...if it's not defined.

The POI and the FSDO are not in agreement with the FAA Chief Counsel.

The FAA has made its position clear in Federal Court that OnCall time is NOT REST.

You may want to read this:

United States Court of Appeals
For the First Circuit
http://www.law.emory.edu/1circuit/a...9-1888.01a.html​

No. 99-1888



AVIATORS FOR SAFE AND FAIRER REGULATION, INC.,



Petitioner,



v.



FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION,



Respondent.





ON PETITION FOR REVIEW OF AN ORDER OF

THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION











Before

Selya, Boudin and Lynch,​

Circuit Judges.​

John M. Edwards with whom John C. Blessington and Kirkpatrick & Lockhart LLP were on brief for petitioner.

Charles W. Scarborough, Appellate Staff, Civil Division, Department of Justice, with whom David W. Ogden, Acting Assistant Attorney General, and Robert S. Greenspan, Appellate Staff, Civil Division, Department of Justice, were on brief for respondent.







BOUDIN, Circuit Judge. Petitioner, Aviators for Safe and Fairer Regulation, Inc. ("Aviators"), is a trade association of about fifty on-demand air charter companies. It brings this case to challenge a so-called notice of enforcement policy issued by the Federal Aviation Administration ("FAA") that purports to interpret, and to express its intent to enforce, a preexisting regulation governing how much rest pilots or other flight crewmembers must get between flight assignments.

Air charter companies furnish "air taxi" service to customers on demand rather than on a scheduled basis. The FAA regulates such companies under Part 135 of its regulations, 14 C.F.R. pt. 135 (2000). The regulation at issue in this case, id. ? 135.267(d), was adopted in its current form in October 1985 and aims to ensure that pilots have adequate rest for purposes of air safety, see 49 U.S.C. ?? 40101(d), 44701(a)(4)-(5) (1994 & Supp. II 1996). It states, in relevant part, that each flight assignment to unscheduled one- and two-pilot crews "must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment." 14 C.F.R. ? 135.267(d).

The term "rest" is not defined in the regulation. On several occasions, the FAA sought to refine the term through rulemaking but those efforts were abortive. (1) Then, on June 15, 1999, without prior notice or rulemaking proceedings, the FAA issued a "notice of enforcement policy." The notice said that it was merely reiterating the FAA's "longstanding interpretation of its regulations" concerning rest requirements and continued in pertinent part:

[T]he FAA has consistently interpreted the term rest to mean that a flight crewmember is free from actual work from the air carrier or from present responsibility for work should the occasion arise. Thus the FAA previously has determined that a flight crewmember on reserve was not at rest if the flight crewmember had a present responsibility for work in that the flight crewmember had to be available for the carrier to notify of a flight assignment.

Notice of Enforcement Policy, 64 Fed. Reg. 32176, 32176 (1999). The principal controversy centers upon how (and in one case whether) the notice resolves two different scenarios, which we shall refer to as the duty-to-report and the duty-to-be-available.

In the duty-to-report scenario, a crewmember who is nominally off duty has a responsibility during the period to leave a contact number, to be fit to fly, to take any telephone calls or other communications notifying him of a flight assignment, and to report for that assignment in a reasonable time (e.g., two hours). In the duty-to-be-available scenario, the same is true but the crewmember has the option to accept or decline a flight assignment that is offered during this off-duty period. It is easy to see why such arrangements would be attractive to an air taxi carrier.

Under either scenario, a call to the crewmember followed by an accepted assignment would (at some stage) terminate any "rest" that might otherwise be accruing. The crewmember, to be eligible for the assignment, would have to have met the "ten hours rest" quota based on "rest" that had already occurred. But the FAA's position in its notice as to the duty-to-report scenario (the duty-to-be-available scenario is a different issue) is that even if no call were made during this nominal off-duty period, none of the period would count as rest because the generic responsibility to leave a number, take calls, and report if assigned would negate "rest" for the entire period.

 

[Raskal]

I never knew of that definition, thanks for the post. I can't help but wonder what the definiton our fsdo is operating under...why is it so much to ask for that the FAA actually be consistent and know what is going on??

Thanks again.

 

[Bandit60]

You cannot count time on call as rest under Part 135. If you are on call you are not in rest

What you said here is not what is in the court ruling that you posted. It seems to me if you are "on reserve" then you are correct. But a on demand 135 outfit can still call a guy out for duty as long as he has had 10 hours of rest. Most On-demand charter outfits dont have reserve per say.

Where am I going wrong?

 

[Grizz]

Bandit,

Under the interpetation and that court order, if you have to be by a phone or pager and ready to fly - it's not rest. A lot of 135 operators play all sorts of games with their employees to get them to believe they are ok but if you get thoroughly checked, you're going to get a violation the same as the company. How many licenses have you got that it's worth putting it up for grabs like that?

 

[gunfyter]

What you said here is not what is in the court ruling that you posted. It seems to me if you are "on reserve" then you are correct. But a on demand 135 outfit can still call a guy out for duty as long as he has had 10 hours of rest. Most On-demand charter outfits dont have reserve per say.

Where am I going wrong?

What I posted is not the whole court ruling. Just the Intro. Go to the link i provided.

Bottom line is this. If you have a duty-to-report if called... then you are not in rest and that time spent in reserve is not rest. If you are called and can say... "you know what I don't feel like flying right now its 3 AM call back later say 0830."... Then that time may count as rest.
==========================================

91K is partly the result of the complaints of 135 Charter companies jealous of the success of Executive Jet and complaining that there was not a competitive level playing field. Now that the CMH FSDO is enforcing 135 Rest rules on probably the Worlds largest fractional and 135 operation ... I wonder if same CMH based company will sue the FAA to level the playing field and enforce 135 Rest Rules on everyone else...

 

[Bandit60]

Bandit,

Under the interpetation and that court order, if you have to be by a phone or pager and ready to fly - it's not rest. A lot of 135 operators play all sorts of games with their employees to get them to believe they are ok but if you get thoroughly checked, you're going to get a violation the same as the company. How many licenses have you got that it's worth putting it up for grabs like that?

Its not really a personal issue for me because I work for a strict 91 operation

 

[Grizz]

Sorry man. Thought you needed the info.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

In theory what you say is correct...However they have us showing up and sitting stby in locations that aren't even open for business....How many aviation careers do you know of that require you to sit in your car for hours on end???

Call Scheduling and tell them your hanging out at the Waffle House with your coffee and USA Today, and please dont bother me! Or try the Krispy Kream, the cops like to sit around the bar and brag about the nights events.

Either way, that situation is bull hockey. I dont see the advantage to the company, other than screwing around with you guys.

 

[netjetwife]

These new rules give the pilots lots of leverage! There is also going to be a bunch of overtime pay racked up with all the o'dark thirty shows... Make it work for you and for the cause! I can't wait to hear how my husband's first day turns out. From the minute he checked in, he had them scrambling...lol

I'm sure the pilots will be sharing their experiences on the board over the next few days--how best to handle the 91K rules. I know SU/P2P is waiting for my husband's report. I think we'll see plenty of the NJ pilots making the most of this opportunity. Finally, the tide has turned in their favor!